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Why is anyone surprised that a smaller segment of the market will pay more for a safer ride in a luxury vehicle compared to a base model Lyft (which can be a ba

Why is anyone surprised that a smaller segment of the market will pay more for a safer ride in a luxury vehicle compared to a base model Lyft (which can be a barely drivable car with rank cloth interior where you can't even fit two people in the back seat)? Next up, some one will post, "First class tickets cost more than coach." Waymo will eventually have Waymo Comfort and Waymo Black.

mbesto 1y ago
> Why is anyone surprised that a smaller segment of the market will pay more for a safer ride in a luxury vehicle compared to a base model Lyft It's a criticism, because this same segment also realizes that a Waymo ride is WAY cheaper to operate than a human driven one.
- socalgal2 1y ago
  Is it? It might be some day but they certainly have to factor in all the R&D they're spending.
  - mbesto 1y ago
    > Is it? Ummm then why on earth would they spend the money to build them if it wasn't?! > but they certainly have to factor in all the R&D they're spending. Those are capital expenses.
- lotsofpulp 1y ago
  > It's a criticism, because this same segment also realizes that a Waymo ride is WAY cheaper to operate than a human driven one. If this were broadly true, Waymo would be everywhere. If it is true, and that’s a big if that it isn’t being subsidized by the rest of Alphabet, it is only true in a very, very, tiny area of the Earth. On the other hand, Uber is a publicly listed company with public financials already operating globally with profits.
  - blululu 1y ago
    This is true for mature markets but a new technology that a horde of lawyers are salivating over a chance to sue has a significant asymptomatic risk. One accident and the whole business is illegalized.
  - mbesto 1y ago
    > If this were broadly true, Waymo would be everywhere. It's not everywhere because of regulation and Waymo wanting to strategically roll it out carefully to markets. Remember, this is Waymo's first market to offer Waymo through the Uber app. There's a reason Waymo hasn't tested non-human driving in Chicago but it has in Phoenix, SF and Austin (I could give you a hint as to why but I'm sure its obvious). > Uber is a publicly listed company with public financials already operating globally with profits. And wants to create even more profit...what's your point? Also it's operating income is a paltry $2B for a company with $41B in revenue. Most of its current net income is from investing activities.
- kortilla 1y ago
  It’s not, or at least it definitely wasn’t a year ago. Those cars were something like $700k each and then there is a lot of software dev and AI infra to pay for. They were charging more than Lyft and were still losing money per ride.
  - mbesto 1y ago
    > Those cars were something like $700k each Source? Also, those numbers are quoted with including capital expenditures, which will get depreciated over years. Also, to do a like for like comparison you have to include all of the people, processes, and systems in place that support drivers. That cost center at Uber has to be in the millions globally for Uber (and hard to calculate on a per driver basis, but possible if we had internal numbers).
    - kortilla 1y ago
      No public source, just talking to old coworkers at Google asking why the rollout was so incredibly slow in the Phoenix location. It’s almost all one big county and the driving conditions are the same across that whole valley. So why not open up the entire service area? The answer was cost. At the time they were still losing money per ride to help get ML training feedback.
johnnyanmac 1y ago
I'm in LA, so I'm still skeptical about "safer". Granted, that's not a high bar, but I know who's accountable if an Uber/Lyft crashes.
- AuthConnectFail 1y ago
  but do you care for accountability or more safety (through lower crash rate)at the end of the day?
  - johnnyanmac 1y ago
    Between modern car safety standards and modern US healthcsre: accountability. The worst case scenario (where I still live) is drastic and I'd rather not add fighting a tech company in court on top of the medical burden, which I'll need to do just to afford the latter.
    - addaon 1y ago
      > The worst case scenario (where I still live) is drastic and I'd rather not add fighting a tech company in court on top of the medical burden, which I'll need to do just to afford the latter. If you're aware of a medical burden, you've done a pretty good job of avoiding the worst case scenario.
- michaelt 1y ago
  I don't know if this is still true in the age of cellphones and uber, but when I was young, women were often advised not to take taxis alone, especially when drunk. There were a few high-profile rapes and murders. As an bald, middle-aged man such risks are negligible for me, but I can see how some people might prefer a driverless vehicle.
  - johnnyanmac 1y ago
    Yeah I'm an ugly middle aged man myself. I'm more worried about the car than the person in it in my case. And I don't trust the tech yet in my area.
nottorp 1y ago
I wonder... are the passengers recorded while in a Waymo? Does Google ever delete those records? Being Google, I bet they don't.
- throwaway2037 1y ago
  Yes, I assume these are recorded to prevent vandalism. To be fair, someone might get legitimately sick in the car (ex. child). So Google can review the tapes and decide if it was intentional or not. Regarding retention of these video recordings, you should check the Waymo user agreement in your area. You might even have the right to ask them to delete it earlier.
  - derwiki 1y ago
    Would a CCPA delete request handle it? Or are they compelled to keep the video for legal reasons
    - throwaway2037 1y ago
      First, I never heard of CCPA before this post. Wiki tells me: <<The California Consumer Privacy Act (CCPA) is a state statute intended to enhance privacy rights and consumer protection for residents of the state of California>> Reading that Wiki page also taught me about the follow-up act passed by ballot prop: <<The California Privacy Rights Act of 2020 (CPRA)... The CPRA took effect on January 1, 2023, applying to personal data collected on or after January 1, 2022. The law cannot be repealed by state legislature, and any amendments made must be “consistent with and further the purpose and intent” of the Act.>>. (Wow... pretty strong!) I like your idea. I think it would be a worthy experience for someone on HN to contact Waymo after taking some rides and ask about videos taken during their ride. Do they have a system to request removal? Also: What are their rights under CCPA? Finally, here is a help page from Waymo about the issue: https://support.google.com/waymo/answer/9190819?hl=en https://support.google.com/waymo/answer/9190819?hl=en Last FAQ has the key: > Can I remove my data from Waymo’s system? > You have many choices regarding how your data is used, such as viewing and editing trip history in the Waymo One app, updating your account information, deleting your account, changing location permissions, and opting out of receiving promotional messages. > California residents have the ability to delete personal information associated with their Waymo One account or download a copy of it. If you have questions or requests related to your rights under state privacy laws, you (or your authorized agent) can also contact Waymo using this help article, Exercising your California privacy rights, or by calling us at 1-844-261-3753. See more information about these tools in our Privacy Policy.
throwaway2037 1y ago
> where you can't even fit two people in the back seat Is this exaggeration? I hope so. I have never seen a taxi nor ride share car that would ever qualify this statement.

mbesto 1y ago

> Why is anyone surprised that a smaller segment of the market will pay more for a safer ride in a luxury vehicle compared to a base model Lyft It's a criticism, because this same segment also realizes that a Waymo ride is WAY cheaper to operate than a human driven one.

socalgal2 1y ago
Is it? It might be some day but they certainly have to factor in all the R&D they're spending.
- mbesto 1y ago
  > Is it? Ummm then why on earth would they spend the money to build them if it wasn't?! > but they certainly have to factor in all the R&D they're spending. Those are capital expenses.
lotsofpulp 1y ago
> It's a criticism, because this same segment also realizes that a Waymo ride is WAY cheaper to operate than a human driven one. If this were broadly true, Waymo would be everywhere. If it is true, and that’s a big if that it isn’t being subsidized by the rest of Alphabet, it is only true in a very, very, tiny area of the Earth. On the other hand, Uber is a publicly listed company with public financials already operating globally with profits.
- blululu 1y ago
  This is true for mature markets but a new technology that a horde of lawyers are salivating over a chance to sue has a significant asymptomatic risk. One accident and the whole business is illegalized.
- mbesto 1y ago
  > If this were broadly true, Waymo would be everywhere. It's not everywhere because of regulation and Waymo wanting to strategically roll it out carefully to markets. Remember, this is Waymo's first market to offer Waymo through the Uber app. There's a reason Waymo hasn't tested non-human driving in Chicago but it has in Phoenix, SF and Austin (I could give you a hint as to why but I'm sure its obvious). > Uber is a publicly listed company with public financials already operating globally with profits. And wants to create even more profit...what's your point? Also it's operating income is a paltry $2B for a company with $41B in revenue. Most of its current net income is from investing activities.
kortilla 1y ago
It’s not, or at least it definitely wasn’t a year ago. Those cars were something like $700k each and then there is a lot of software dev and AI infra to pay for. They were charging more than Lyft and were still losing money per ride.
- mbesto 1y ago
  > Those cars were something like $700k each Source? Also, those numbers are quoted with including capital expenditures, which will get depreciated over years. Also, to do a like for like comparison you have to include all of the people, processes, and systems in place that support drivers. That cost center at Uber has to be in the millions globally for Uber (and hard to calculate on a per driver basis, but possible if we had internal numbers).
  - kortilla 1y ago
    No public source, just talking to old coworkers at Google asking why the rollout was so incredibly slow in the Phoenix location. It’s almost all one big county and the driving conditions are the same across that whole valley. So why not open up the entire service area? The answer was cost. At the time they were still losing money per ride to help get ML training feedback.

johnnyanmac 1y ago

I'm in LA, so I'm still skeptical about "safer". Granted, that's not a high bar, but I know who's accountable if an Uber/Lyft crashes.

AuthConnectFail 1y ago
but do you care for accountability or more safety (through lower crash rate)at the end of the day?
- johnnyanmac 1y ago
  Between modern car safety standards and modern US healthcsre: accountability. The worst case scenario (where I still live) is drastic and I'd rather not add fighting a tech company in court on top of the medical burden, which I'll need to do just to afford the latter.
  - addaon 1y ago
    > The worst case scenario (where I still live) is drastic and I'd rather not add fighting a tech company in court on top of the medical burden, which I'll need to do just to afford the latter. If you're aware of a medical burden, you've done a pretty good job of avoiding the worst case scenario.
michaelt 1y ago
I don't know if this is still true in the age of cellphones and uber, but when I was young, women were often advised not to take taxis alone, especially when drunk. There were a few high-profile rapes and murders. As an bald, middle-aged man such risks are negligible for me, but I can see how some people might prefer a driverless vehicle.
- johnnyanmac 1y ago
  Yeah I'm an ugly middle aged man myself. I'm more worried about the car than the person in it in my case. And I don't trust the tech yet in my area.

nottorp 1y ago

I wonder... are the passengers recorded while in a Waymo? Does Google ever delete those records? Being Google, I bet they don't.

throwaway2037 1y ago
Yes, I assume these are recorded to prevent vandalism. To be fair, someone might get legitimately sick in the car (ex. child). So Google can review the tapes and decide if it was intentional or not. Regarding retention of these video recordings, you should check the Waymo user agreement in your area. You might even have the right to ask them to delete it earlier.
- derwiki 1y ago
  Would a CCPA delete request handle it? Or are they compelled to keep the video for legal reasons
  - throwaway2037 1y ago
    First, I never heard of CCPA before this post. Wiki tells me: <<The California Consumer Privacy Act (CCPA) is a state statute intended to enhance privacy rights and consumer protection for residents of the state of California>> Reading that Wiki page also taught me about the follow-up act passed by ballot prop: <<The California Privacy Rights Act of 2020 (CPRA)... The CPRA took effect on January 1, 2023, applying to personal data collected on or after January 1, 2022. The law cannot be repealed by state legislature, and any amendments made must be “consistent with and further the purpose and intent” of the Act.>>. (Wow... pretty strong!) I like your idea. I think it would be a worthy experience for someone on HN to contact Waymo after taking some rides and ask about videos taken during their ride. Do they have a system to request removal? Also: What are their rights under CCPA? Finally, here is a help page from Waymo about the issue: https://support.google.com/waymo/answer/9190819?hl=en https://support.google.com/waymo/answer/9190819?hl=en Last FAQ has the key: > Can I remove my data from Waymo’s system? > You have many choices regarding how your data is used, such as viewing and editing trip history in the Waymo One app, updating your account information, deleting your account, changing location permissions, and opting out of receiving promotional messages. > California residents have the ability to delete personal information associated with their Waymo One account or download a copy of it. If you have questions or requests related to your rights under state privacy laws, you (or your authorized agent) can also contact Waymo using this help article, Exercising your California privacy rights, or by calling us at 1-844-261-3753. See more information about these tools in our Privacy Policy.

throwaway2037 1y ago

> where you can't even fit two people in the back seat Is this exaggeration? I hope so. I have never seen a taxi nor ride share car that would ever qualify this statement.