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how come each time researchers find a new spyware, it's always an Israeli shop behind it ? maybe because Israel has developed an ecosystem and an industry aroun

by slim 1y ago

how come each time researchers find a new spyware, it's always an Israeli shop behind it ? maybe because Israel has developed an ecosystem and an industry around spying. I think it's evil to try to deflect the blame from israel given the fact it's currently committing genocide in Palestine

bawolff 1y ago
I imagine most of the time it would be pretty hard to attribute which company and from which country the spyware comes from. I'm always amazed we know the origin of these sorts of things as much as we do.
tptacek 1y ago
Based on what you're saying, I think I know more about this market than you do. I'm comfortable with who does and does not take me seriously. For those people who do: this "Israel" stuff is not useful for understanding what's happening in the world with respect to CNE tools.
- mafuyu 1y ago
  Just out of curiosity - would you describe companies that are commonly in the spotlight as more mercenary than average?
  - tptacek 1y ago
    Absolutely not. Some of them are far more ruthless, some of them much more principled.
    - Intermernet 1y ago
      I've seen you reference these actors previously. Is there a reason you won't name them? Is this an industry code of silence, or fear of retribution?
      - mandmandam 1y ago
        This isn't the first of these takes regarding Israel by that poster, where they present themselves as 'not supportive of Israel, just presenting a balanced perspective' (while wildly distorting reality). Since tptacek likes to present themselves as an authority on this kind of stuff, and does indeed have a reputation here, I feel it's important to point out that this isn't the first time they've carried water for Israel like this. Examples: Calling Israel's exploding pagers war crime "surgical" [0] - which it absolutely was not, or, saying that Hamas should've taken the ceasefire deal they were offered [1] (rightly called out in the replies). It's absurd to try and claim that Israel is 'no better or worse' than other nations in the 'spying on journalists phones' department. Especially when you look at why. 0 - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41570806 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41570806 1 - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42720493 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42720493
        bigyabai 1y ago
        This is one of the many pitfalls of sharing a collective identity, whether in politics, technology, or even outright jingoist nationalism. You see it on HN all the time; people respond to the tone of a piece rather than what the actual contents are. It's pretty obvious when someone posts a message imbued with that insecurity; it's always about "the other side" and trying to create relative morality. Hasbara, in the Hebrew vernacular. Or "mansplaining" if you're a jaded progressive. American surveillance is a pretty good example. "Lawful" intercept, geofence tracking, dragnet collection, commercial de-anonymization, America leads the way in a deeply unethical field. Yet, criticize Palantir et. al and people will find ways to argue it's necessary. Usually they create a boogeyman; "we're the good guys because we fight human traffickers and thieves" type of stuff. You don't have to look very closely at the marketing materials for these companies, they're very clear about using it on the "bad guys" to assuage the average insecurity. It's like the dog-and-pony we always see when iOS vs Android security is brought up; "it's not about my phone, it's the relative security of theirs!" When in reality, neither company is ethical or sells a secure product. They're excuses not to think, instead of logical arguments against the claim. This isn't even a politics issue, either. These comments are a mirror reflection of one's character and their internal (often irrational) justification for an illogical stance. Often these comments aren't even rooted in a form of rhetoric, they just want to deflect the blow a little bit to cover their own ass emotionally. In the tech industry, I've noticed this happen a lot when people are embarrassed by their own work being discovered "in the wild" by peers.
- 7402 1y ago
  A long time ago, I went to my first (and only) Defcon conference. There was a speaker who had worked in the US government talking about state use of hacking tools. After the talk I went up to him and asked, "What are the countries that are using these tools?" He looked at me with a certain amount of scorn and said, "All of them."
  - tptacek 1y ago
    This obviously just has to be true. I have very strong evidence that it's true, but it's also just the most obvious possible conclusion to reach. Competitive CNE tooling even at the top of the market costs just a fraction of what you'd have to pay in benefits and overhead for the equivalent HUMINT operations.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
immibis 1y ago
They have more experience with such things - all the expertise concentrated there. It's the same reason all the megasocialtech web apps come from Silicon Valley.
tonyhart7 1y ago
because all of this private company linked to the former elite cyber unit that israel army has its not surprising since israel intelligence unit one of the best in the world

by slim 1y ago

bawolff 1y ago

I imagine most of the time it would be pretty hard to attribute which company and from which country the spyware comes from. I'm always amazed we know the origin of these sorts of things as much as we do.

tptacek 1y ago

Based on what you're saying, I think I know more about this market than you do. I'm comfortable with who does and does not take me seriously. For those people who do: this "Israel" stuff is not useful for understanding what's happening in the world with respect to CNE tools.

mafuyu 1y ago
Just out of curiosity - would you describe companies that are commonly in the spotlight as more mercenary than average?
- tptacek 1y ago
  Absolutely not. Some of them are far more ruthless, some of them much more principled.
  - Intermernet 1y ago
    I've seen you reference these actors previously. Is there a reason you won't name them? Is this an industry code of silence, or fear of retribution?
    - mandmandam 1y ago
      This isn't the first of these takes regarding Israel by that poster, where they present themselves as 'not supportive of Israel, just presenting a balanced perspective' (while wildly distorting reality). Since tptacek likes to present themselves as an authority on this kind of stuff, and does indeed have a reputation here, I feel it's important to point out that this isn't the first time they've carried water for Israel like this. Examples: Calling Israel's exploding pagers war crime "surgical" [0] - which it absolutely was not, or, saying that Hamas should've taken the ceasefire deal they were offered [1] (rightly called out in the replies). It's absurd to try and claim that Israel is 'no better or worse' than other nations in the 'spying on journalists phones' department. Especially when you look at why. 0 - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41570806 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41570806 1 - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42720493 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42720493
      - bigyabai 1y ago
        This is one of the many pitfalls of sharing a collective identity, whether in politics, technology, or even outright jingoist nationalism. You see it on HN all the time; people respond to the tone of a piece rather than what the actual contents are. It's pretty obvious when someone posts a message imbued with that insecurity; it's always about "the other side" and trying to create relative morality. Hasbara, in the Hebrew vernacular. Or "mansplaining" if you're a jaded progressive. American surveillance is a pretty good example. "Lawful" intercept, geofence tracking, dragnet collection, commercial de-anonymization, America leads the way in a deeply unethical field. Yet, criticize Palantir et. al and people will find ways to argue it's necessary. Usually they create a boogeyman; "we're the good guys because we fight human traffickers and thieves" type of stuff. You don't have to look very closely at the marketing materials for these companies, they're very clear about using it on the "bad guys" to assuage the average insecurity. It's like the dog-and-pony we always see when iOS vs Android security is brought up; "it's not about my phone, it's the relative security of theirs!" When in reality, neither company is ethical or sells a secure product. They're excuses not to think, instead of logical arguments against the claim. This isn't even a politics issue, either. These comments are a mirror reflection of one's character and their internal (often irrational) justification for an illogical stance. Often these comments aren't even rooted in a form of rhetoric, they just want to deflect the blow a little bit to cover their own ass emotionally. In the tech industry, I've noticed this happen a lot when people are embarrassed by their own work being discovered "in the wild" by peers.
7402 1y ago
A long time ago, I went to my first (and only) Defcon conference. There was a speaker who had worked in the US government talking about state use of hacking tools. After the talk I went up to him and asked, "What are the countries that are using these tools?" He looked at me with a certain amount of scorn and said, "All of them."
- tptacek 1y ago
  This obviously just has to be true. I have very strong evidence that it's true, but it's also just the most obvious possible conclusion to reach. Competitive CNE tooling even at the top of the market costs just a fraction of what you'd have to pay in benefits and overhead for the equivalent HUMINT operations.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

immibis 1y ago

They have more experience with such things - all the expertise concentrated there. It's the same reason all the megasocialtech web apps come from Silicon Valley.

tonyhart7 1y ago

because all of this private company linked to the former elite cyber unit that israel army has its not surprising since israel intelligence unit one of the best in the world