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> Israel is doing settler colonialism to people that had nothing to do with WW2 and the holocaust. If you have a problem with the Germans, take it up with Germa

by edanm 1y ago

> Israel is doing settler colonialism to people that had nothing to do with WW2 and the holocaust. If you have a problem with the Germans, take it up with Germany. > [...] it is a common understanding that they are being subjected to a Nazi extermination campaign by people (Christian and Jewish Zionists) claiming the Holocaust made them do it That is not what Israel is doing. Israel is attacking a semi-state that invaded and slaughtered its people. That is the original and majority motivation for the current actions in Gaza. Some Israelis, who are not representative of the majority but do have outsized political power, also want to resettle Gaza and take the land. I hope they are soon removed from office and from holding any power. > (meanwhile, the Zionists stole reparations money from Holocaust survivors and considered the survivors weak). Many of the original citizens of Israel were the Holocaust survivors, and the majority were the Jews ethnically cleansed from Arab lands. So I'm not sure where you're getting this "The Zionists stole reparations" idea.

dragonwriter 1y ago
> Israel is attacking a semi-state that invaded and slaughtered its people. Israel has been conducting a campaign of (and even has openly described it in terms very closely paralleling the definition of) genocide against the Palestinian people throughout Palestine since decades before its for for-show semi-diseengagement from Gaza (heck, even for decades before it fostered the creation of Hamas while it occupied Gaza to split Palestinian resistance from its unified backing of the less Islamist, more pan-Arab nationalist PLO.)
- edanm 1y ago
  So Israel has been conducting genocide against Palestinians for decades? That's simply preposterous. There's zero reason to think so, and many, many reasons to think it's not true. > since decades before its for for-show semi-diseengagement from Gaza So when Israel does do what Palestinians supposedly want - completely remove all its citizens from the territory and hand it over to Palestinians to control - then it's all "for show"? In what way exactly? What should Israel do then that would satisfy you/Palestinians? > (heck, even for decades before it fostered the creation of Hamas while it occupied Gaza to split Palestinian resistance from its unified backing of the less Islamist, more pan-Arab nationalist PLO.) You're kind of skipping over the part where Israel engaged in a peace process with the PLO, signed the Oslo accords with them, recognized them as the official representatives of the Palestinian people in the form of the Palestinian Authority, continued working towards peace with the PA until 2008 (ending in, as always before it, an offer for a two-state solution presented to the PA by Olmert, which they rejected). And has worked in security cooperation with the PA since. Although to be clear, I think Israel has not engaged in any meaningful attempt at peace since 2009, and has in fact done quite the opposite. Criticism of Israel propping up Hamas on purpose to weaken the chance of a two-state solution is a valid one, but it happened after Israelis got largely disillusioned with the idea of any peace being reached, given the multiple failures of PA leadership to sign 2SS deals with Israel, and the simultaneous launching of the Second Intifada.
  - dragonwriter 1y ago
    > So when Israel does do what Palestinians supposedly want - completely remove all its citizens from the territory and hand it over to Palestinians to control They didn't actually do that; they continued to assert a set of layered security exclusion zones within Gaza where Gazans were forbidden to enter except under limited conditions, and continued to shoot unarmed civilians across the border within and beyond those zones, whether or not they were complying with the unilaterally-asserted terms.
    - edanm 1y ago
      I'm not sure what you're talking about. Israel kept a small buffer zone around the border, but other than that, I'm not sure what "layered security exclusion zones" you mean. And Israel didn't just randomly shoot at unarmed civilians, it shot at people approaching the border. Given that Gaza was controlled by a terrorist organization with a stated goal of carrying out attacks on Israel, and given what happened on October 7th, I think it's hard to say Israel wasn't justified in guarding its border to the extent it did. Had it guarded it better on October 7th, a whole lot of bloodshed on both sides could've been saved.
      - dragonwriter 1y ago
        > I'm not sure what you're talking about. Israel kept a small buffer zone around the border, but other than that, I'm not sure what "layered security exclusion zones" you mean. The buffer zone had different rules at different distances, and while you call it small it consisted of 17% of the land area of Gaza when Israel "completed" its "disengagement", and was later unilaterally expanded to 24% of the land area of Gaza.
        edanm 1y ago
        Do you have a source for this? These are much higher numbers than that I'm aware of outside of during specific skirmishes which usually lasted a few weeks at most.
tehjoker 1y ago
read up https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/the-holocaust-industry-reflections-on-the-exploitation-of-jewish-suffering_norman-g-finkelstein/371402/ https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/the-holocaust-industry-reflect...
- edanm 1y ago
  I'm not going to read an entire book, especially one written by someone I so little respect for, since he lies constantly and is, to put it mildly, biased against Israel. What happened was that the state of Israel accepted reparations from Germany, and used it to build the State. This was controversial for many reasons, and was highly fraught politically. But that doesn't mean "the Zionists stole reparations", that's a silly and inflammatory way of looking at it.
  - LtWorf 1y ago
    But germany didn't own palestina…
- guappa 1y ago
  Open his profile and check where he lives. It's pointless.

by edanm 1y ago

dragonwriter 1y ago

> Israel is attacking a semi-state that invaded and slaughtered its people. Israel has been conducting a campaign of (and even has openly described it in terms very closely paralleling the definition of) genocide against the Palestinian people throughout Palestine since decades before its for for-show semi-diseengagement from Gaza (heck, even for decades before it fostered the creation of Hamas while it occupied Gaza to split Palestinian resistance from its unified backing of the less Islamist, more pan-Arab nationalist PLO.)

edanm 1y ago
So Israel has been conducting genocide against Palestinians for decades? That's simply preposterous. There's zero reason to think so, and many, many reasons to think it's not true. > since decades before its for for-show semi-diseengagement from Gaza So when Israel does do what Palestinians supposedly want - completely remove all its citizens from the territory and hand it over to Palestinians to control - then it's all "for show"? In what way exactly? What should Israel do then that would satisfy you/Palestinians? > (heck, even for decades before it fostered the creation of Hamas while it occupied Gaza to split Palestinian resistance from its unified backing of the less Islamist, more pan-Arab nationalist PLO.) You're kind of skipping over the part where Israel engaged in a peace process with the PLO, signed the Oslo accords with them, recognized them as the official representatives of the Palestinian people in the form of the Palestinian Authority, continued working towards peace with the PA until 2008 (ending in, as always before it, an offer for a two-state solution presented to the PA by Olmert, which they rejected). And has worked in security cooperation with the PA since. Although to be clear, I think Israel has not engaged in any meaningful attempt at peace since 2009, and has in fact done quite the opposite. Criticism of Israel propping up Hamas on purpose to weaken the chance of a two-state solution is a valid one, but it happened after Israelis got largely disillusioned with the idea of any peace being reached, given the multiple failures of PA leadership to sign 2SS deals with Israel, and the simultaneous launching of the Second Intifada.
- dragonwriter 1y ago
  > So when Israel does do what Palestinians supposedly want - completely remove all its citizens from the territory and hand it over to Palestinians to control They didn't actually do that; they continued to assert a set of layered security exclusion zones within Gaza where Gazans were forbidden to enter except under limited conditions, and continued to shoot unarmed civilians across the border within and beyond those zones, whether or not they were complying with the unilaterally-asserted terms.
  - edanm 1y ago
    I'm not sure what you're talking about. Israel kept a small buffer zone around the border, but other than that, I'm not sure what "layered security exclusion zones" you mean. And Israel didn't just randomly shoot at unarmed civilians, it shot at people approaching the border. Given that Gaza was controlled by a terrorist organization with a stated goal of carrying out attacks on Israel, and given what happened on October 7th, I think it's hard to say Israel wasn't justified in guarding its border to the extent it did. Had it guarded it better on October 7th, a whole lot of bloodshed on both sides could've been saved.
    - dragonwriter 1y ago
      > I'm not sure what you're talking about. Israel kept a small buffer zone around the border, but other than that, I'm not sure what "layered security exclusion zones" you mean. The buffer zone had different rules at different distances, and while you call it small it consisted of 17% of the land area of Gaza when Israel "completed" its "disengagement", and was later unilaterally expanded to 24% of the land area of Gaza.
      - edanm 1y ago
        Do you have a source for this? These are much higher numbers than that I'm aware of outside of during specific skirmishes which usually lasted a few weeks at most.

tehjoker 1y ago

read up https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/the-holocaust-industry-reflections-on-the-exploitation-of-jewish-suffering_norman-g-finkelstein/371402/ https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/the-holocaust-industry-reflect...

edanm 1y ago
I'm not going to read an entire book, especially one written by someone I so little respect for, since he lies constantly and is, to put it mildly, biased against Israel. What happened was that the state of Israel accepted reparations from Germany, and used it to build the State. This was controversial for many reasons, and was highly fraught politically. But that doesn't mean "the Zionists stole reparations", that's a silly and inflammatory way of looking at it.
- LtWorf 1y ago
  But germany didn't own palestina…
guappa 1y ago
Open his profile and check where he lives. It's pointless.