4 ms·

You're ignoring the massive elephant in the room. The previous administration let millions and millions of completely unvetted and undocumented immigrants into

by xedrac 1y ago

You're ignoring the massive elephant in the room. The previous administration let millions and millions of completely unvetted and undocumented immigrants into our county, creating an unprecedented crisis. I view Trump's actions as reclaiming our country from the brink. All of the instances you mentioned are simply fallout from the crises Trump was handed, and it astonishes me how liberals cannot see this simple fact.

martythemaniak 1y ago
> creating an unprecedented crisis Nope, that's just your brain on right wing propaganda. Nothing of the sort has happened to justify throwing away the rule of law as this administration is doing. It is like murdering someone because you're annoyed that they chew with their mouth open, just an absolutely, wildly disproportionate response to what has happened. Coincidentally (to riff on the GP) it is almost word-for-word the propaganda Orban used in the mid 2010s to consolidate his authoritarian rule of Hungary.
angrysaki 1y ago
What are the symptoms of this "unprecedented crisis" and what makes it a crisis?
- marcusverus 1y ago
  Chicago spent $300 Million on freebies for migrants.[0] The mayor of NYC saying that the migrant crisis "will destroy New York City".[1] 1/3 of polled schools said that the influx of ESL migrant children had had a "significant" impact on their school districts, taking resources and attention away from American schoolkids.[2] 77% of Americans considered the border situation to be either a "Crisis" or a "Major Problem"[3] [0] https://apnews.com/article/chicago-migrants-black-latino-biden-immigration-ab8d7f22eea423d86fb350665b9e66f6 https://apnews.com/article/chicago-migrants-black-latino-bid... [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/07/nyregion/adams-migrants-destroy-nyc.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/07/nyregion/adams-migrants-d... [2] https://www.reuters.com/investigations/an-american-education-classrooms-reshaped-by-record-migrant-arrivals-2024-10-05/ https://www.reuters.com/investigations/an-american-education... [4] https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2024/02/15/how-americans-view-the-situation-at-the-u-s-mexico-border-its-causes-and-consequences/ https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2024/02/15/how-american...
  - angrysaki 1y ago
    So apart from some 300 million number, it's just all vibes? Here I was expecting data about how all these illegal immigrants are causing crimes everywhere at higher rates than americans, or how many cats and dogs they've eaten but I guess there's no actual evidence of a crisis.
    - marcusverus 1y ago
      [flagged]
      - angrysaki 1y ago
        Before I put my fedora back on and leave, could you answer this question: Do you truly think the evidence you provided would convince someone ignorant on the matter that there really was a migrant crisis that warrants the Trump administration's behavior?
        marcusverus 1y ago
        > Do you truly think the evidence you provided would convince someone ignorant on the matter that there really was a migrant crisis that warrants the Trump administration's behavior? I do! The term 'crisis' has been politicized to the point where the term's applicability is basically a shibboleth. When Biden called it a crisis in 2021, the White House issued a statement saying "The President’s use of the “crisis” label doesn’t represent the administration’s official position".[0] The administration had an official position on the use of the term 'crisis'! Point being, it's hard to convince someone that the border situation is a "crisis" when their priors on the topic have been prejudiced by political messaging. If someone was new to the topic, it would be easier for them to be objective. You and I have already been inundated with political messaging, though. The best way to simulate ignorance on the matter is to abstract away the politics and pose the question in a way that doesn't trigger a connection to politics: "The year is 2034. A situation has arisen. To deal with the situation, the city of Chicago alone has spent $300 dollars. The mayor of New York City has stated that the issue "could destroy the city of New York". 30% of schools say the issue affects their ability to educate our children. 77% of Americans say the situation is either a "crisis" or a "major issue". Would someone ignorant of the matter be more justified in assuming that this was reflective of a crisis, or mere "vibes"? > Before I put my fedora back on and leave I honestly loled. [0]https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/19/politics/biden-border-crisis-unaccompanied-minors https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/19/politics/biden-border-crisis-...
ethbr1 1y ago
People who think that's a massive elephant are shortsighted. You know what illegal immigrants do? Work. For shitty wages. You know what that does? Boosts the US' labor force and economy, which buffers the declining fertility rate [0]. The fact that anti-immigration (of any sort) folks never think beyond first-effects is mind boggling. Illegal immigration causes some problems; it also solves others. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_fertility_rate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_terr...
- gedy 1y ago
  Well they do take up a lot of housing if you live in areas with many illegal aliens, which folks here always complain about.
- newhope1978 1y ago
  so your reason that why we need them is because they are wage slaves that will eventually replace us? Why not just use the billions of dollars spent on immigration to boost wages, make life more affordable, and give tax cuts to ACTUAL AMERICANS as an incentive to have more kids?
  - dakr 1y ago
    Tax cuts aren't what people are waiting for to grow their families. It's parental leave, childcare, affordable healthcare, and the feeling that the system their kids will grow up in isn't getting actively gutted in favor of the rich and religious zealots.
  - ethbr1 1y ago
    Economies run on labor. Raging isn't going to change that hard truth. I'm also not sure we see the math the same way. Illegal immigrant = working, not consuming social services (outside of guaranteed entitlements like EMTALA), paying payroll and sales taxes Tax cuts = ?? You think COVID stimulus would have made people understand that flooding more money into a system with limited supply capacity will just lead to price inflation. The way to address quality of life for parents and promote having children is to decrease the economic cost of doing so. PS: Bolding actual americans made me laugh. Actual Americans are anyone who works hard in this country.
insane_dreamer 1y ago
> The previous administration let millions and millions of completely unvetted and undocumented immigrants into our county, creating an unprecedented crisis. that's a lie. there were fewer illegal immigrants in 2022 (under Biden) then in 2018 (under Trump) [0] [0] https://ohss.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/2024-06/2024_0418_ohss_estimates-of-the-unauthorized-immigrant-population-residing-in-the-united-states-january-2018%25E2%2580%2593january-2022.pdf https://ohss.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/2024-06/2024_0418_o...

by xedrac 1y ago

martythemaniak 1y ago

> creating an unprecedented crisis Nope, that's just your brain on right wing propaganda. Nothing of the sort has happened to justify throwing away the rule of law as this administration is doing. It is like murdering someone because you're annoyed that they chew with their mouth open, just an absolutely, wildly disproportionate response to what has happened. Coincidentally (to riff on the GP) it is almost word-for-word the propaganda Orban used in the mid 2010s to consolidate his authoritarian rule of Hungary.

angrysaki 1y ago

What are the symptoms of this "unprecedented crisis" and what makes it a crisis?

marcusverus 1y ago
Chicago spent $300 Million on freebies for migrants.[0] The mayor of NYC saying that the migrant crisis "will destroy New York City".[1] 1/3 of polled schools said that the influx of ESL migrant children had had a "significant" impact on their school districts, taking resources and attention away from American schoolkids.[2] 77% of Americans considered the border situation to be either a "Crisis" or a "Major Problem"[3] [0] https://apnews.com/article/chicago-migrants-black-latino-biden-immigration-ab8d7f22eea423d86fb350665b9e66f6 https://apnews.com/article/chicago-migrants-black-latino-bid... [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/07/nyregion/adams-migrants-destroy-nyc.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/07/nyregion/adams-migrants-d... [2] https://www.reuters.com/investigations/an-american-education-classrooms-reshaped-by-record-migrant-arrivals-2024-10-05/ https://www.reuters.com/investigations/an-american-education... [4] https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2024/02/15/how-americans-view-the-situation-at-the-u-s-mexico-border-its-causes-and-consequences/ https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2024/02/15/how-american...
- angrysaki 1y ago
  So apart from some 300 million number, it's just all vibes? Here I was expecting data about how all these illegal immigrants are causing crimes everywhere at higher rates than americans, or how many cats and dogs they've eaten but I guess there's no actual evidence of a crisis.
  - marcusverus 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - angrysaki 1y ago
      Before I put my fedora back on and leave, could you answer this question: Do you truly think the evidence you provided would convince someone ignorant on the matter that there really was a migrant crisis that warrants the Trump administration's behavior?
      - marcusverus 1y ago
        > Do you truly think the evidence you provided would convince someone ignorant on the matter that there really was a migrant crisis that warrants the Trump administration's behavior? I do! The term 'crisis' has been politicized to the point where the term's applicability is basically a shibboleth. When Biden called it a crisis in 2021, the White House issued a statement saying "The President’s use of the “crisis” label doesn’t represent the administration’s official position".[0] The administration had an official position on the use of the term 'crisis'! Point being, it's hard to convince someone that the border situation is a "crisis" when their priors on the topic have been prejudiced by political messaging. If someone was new to the topic, it would be easier for them to be objective. You and I have already been inundated with political messaging, though. The best way to simulate ignorance on the matter is to abstract away the politics and pose the question in a way that doesn't trigger a connection to politics: "The year is 2034. A situation has arisen. To deal with the situation, the city of Chicago alone has spent $300 dollars. The mayor of New York City has stated that the issue "could destroy the city of New York". 30% of schools say the issue affects their ability to educate our children. 77% of Americans say the situation is either a "crisis" or a "major issue". Would someone ignorant of the matter be more justified in assuming that this was reflective of a crisis, or mere "vibes"? > Before I put my fedora back on and leave I honestly loled. [0]https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/19/politics/biden-border-crisis-unaccompanied-minors https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/19/politics/biden-border-crisis-...

ethbr1 1y ago

People who think that's a massive elephant are shortsighted. You know what illegal immigrants do? Work. For shitty wages. You know what that does? Boosts the US' labor force and economy, which buffers the declining fertility rate [0]. The fact that anti-immigration (of any sort) folks never think beyond first-effects is mind boggling. Illegal immigration causes some problems; it also solves others. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_fertility_rate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_terr...

gedy 1y ago
Well they do take up a lot of housing if you live in areas with many illegal aliens, which folks here always complain about.
newhope1978 1y ago
so your reason that why we need them is because they are wage slaves that will eventually replace us? Why not just use the billions of dollars spent on immigration to boost wages, make life more affordable, and give tax cuts to ACTUAL AMERICANS as an incentive to have more kids?
- dakr 1y ago
  Tax cuts aren't what people are waiting for to grow their families. It's parental leave, childcare, affordable healthcare, and the feeling that the system their kids will grow up in isn't getting actively gutted in favor of the rich and religious zealots.
- ethbr1 1y ago
  Economies run on labor. Raging isn't going to change that hard truth. I'm also not sure we see the math the same way. Illegal immigrant = working, not consuming social services (outside of guaranteed entitlements like EMTALA), paying payroll and sales taxes Tax cuts = ?? You think COVID stimulus would have made people understand that flooding more money into a system with limited supply capacity will just lead to price inflation. The way to address quality of life for parents and promote having children is to decrease the economic cost of doing so. PS: Bolding actual americans made me laugh. Actual Americans are anyone who works hard in this country.

insane_dreamer 1y ago

> The previous administration let millions and millions of completely unvetted and undocumented immigrants into our county, creating an unprecedented crisis. that's a lie. there were fewer illegal immigrants in 2022 (under Biden) then in 2018 (under Trump) [0] [0] https://ohss.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/2024-06/2024_0418_ohss_estimates-of-the-unauthorized-immigrant-population-residing-in-the-united-states-january-2018%25E2%2580%2593january-2022.pdf https://ohss.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/2024-06/2024_0418_o...