5 ms·

US rockets were always made by private providers like SpaceX or Boeing.

bumby 1y ago
Yes, but the government has much more control over all aspects, especially design. That changed with the commercial crew program.
- rockemsockem 1y ago
  And that was good because... Why?
  - bumby 1y ago
    It would potentially mitigate the risk identified by the GGP regarding “unreliable” contractors who force risks on you that you may not want. Same reason I often choose to do house maintenance myself. Not to say it’s also not without costs/risks, it just comes down to which balance you prefer.
    - rockemsockem 1y ago
      NASA still makes these competitive contracts though and picks among several contractors. Afterwards NASA is still involved in design through reviews and other lines of communication. Using your analogy, if I do hire a contractor I'll talk with them a lot about what they're going to do and make sure it's generally in line with what I want, but they're generating most of the ideas and just incorporating what I say.
      - bumby 1y ago
        Eh, not so much. They have reviews, but it is a much more hands off approach. * There were instances where NASA engineers brought up issues with designs and were told it wasn’t their role to drive the design. The concept of CCP was they were buying a ride, not a rocket. Just like you don’t tell Airbus what engine they should use when you buy a plane ticket. * IMO the goal of CCP was to find a mechanism to informally circumvent many requirements. NASA could always waive requirements but I don’t think many people were willing to sign on the dotted line even if they disagreed with the requirements. CCP unburdens them from the same requirements while also allowing them to avoid full responsibility for the decision. (More charitably, it also allowed them to avoid some political costs, like having to spread projects across multiple political areas to avoid funding cuts.)
        rockemsockem 1y ago
        Right, reviews, where important design concerns can be raised. IDK what specific design concerns you're referring to, but just because an issue is raised doesn't mean it's a real issue. Again, you don't want two different organizations trying to design one thing.
        bumby 1y ago
        You missed the part where NASA engineers were told to pipe down about concerns because it wasn’t their place to drive the design. There were numerous, the ones I’m familiar with involved touch screens in cockpits and the amount of reliability needed in safety critical hardware.
        rockemsockem 1y ago
        Everyone is wrong sometimes. Dragon seems to be pretty safe, so idk what else to measure that against?
  - sc68cal 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - rockemsockem 1y ago
      NASA still sets requirements and invites several companies to compete for contracts with different solutions. See the lunar lander contracts from a few years ago for example. You are ascribing beliefs to be based on others in this thread I think. What I think is that if a company is going to build and provide the solution then they should own the design. NASA should of course get to be involved in reviews and discussions, which they absolutely fucking are, but I do not think that it makes sense for one organization to design something and the other one to build it as if there's like a hard line between these two activities. I'm not convinced that is how it worked in the days of Apollo either as you've just asserted that without citation.
      - deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
    - HDThoreaun 1y ago
      NASA has not been effective in 50 years. Maybe time to try something else?
      - bumby 1y ago
        How are you measuring effectiveness? It seems like you might have a pretty shallow perspective on what NASA does and what their goals are. For example, do you know how many mission directorates they have and how they differ?
        rockemsockem 1y ago
        Not the person you're responding to, but JWT, SLS, and several other projects have suffered extreme bloat in both cost and timeline. Mega projects like that are some of the most public -facing things NASA does, so they unfortunately tend to drive public perception. I will never argue that NASA doesn't accomplish amazing things, but large parts of the organization are ineffective. IDK if I'd go so far as to say the entire organization is ineffective, but large parts are. I also don't think we should cut NASA's budget at all. We should cut the bloat and redirect it to more projects.
johaugum 1y ago
Not really. Early rockets included multiple private contractors like Douglas, Boeing and NAA, but those were basically government projects top to bottom. Single vendor commercial rockets are a recent (2000s) invention.
- chrisco255 1y ago
  Think of how wasteful and inefficient multi-vendor rockets are as a concept. What complex machine would you engineer in such a way? Would you have the government, rather than buy cars from Ford, GM, Tesla, etc, instead contract out the production to one company for the motor, one for the frame, and one for the interior and instrumentation?
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - johannes1234321 1y ago
    It was the only way to do it at the time, no company would have had the capacity for such a project, including reserves for damages. And even in private businesses it is common to outsource specific elements to external suppliers. The Saturn program was massive.

Yes, but the government has much more control over all aspects, especially design. That changed with the commercial crew program.

rockemsockem 1y ago
And that was good because... Why?
- bumby 1y ago
  It would potentially mitigate the risk identified by the GGP regarding “unreliable” contractors who force risks on you that you may not want. Same reason I often choose to do house maintenance myself. Not to say it’s also not without costs/risks, it just comes down to which balance you prefer.
  - rockemsockem 1y ago
    NASA still makes these competitive contracts though and picks among several contractors. Afterwards NASA is still involved in design through reviews and other lines of communication. Using your analogy, if I do hire a contractor I'll talk with them a lot about what they're going to do and make sure it's generally in line with what I want, but they're generating most of the ideas and just incorporating what I say.
    - bumby 1y ago
      Eh, not so much. They have reviews, but it is a much more hands off approach. * There were instances where NASA engineers brought up issues with designs and were told it wasn’t their role to drive the design. The concept of CCP was they were buying a ride, not a rocket. Just like you don’t tell Airbus what engine they should use when you buy a plane ticket. * IMO the goal of CCP was to find a mechanism to informally circumvent many requirements. NASA could always waive requirements but I don’t think many people were willing to sign on the dotted line even if they disagreed with the requirements. CCP unburdens them from the same requirements while also allowing them to avoid full responsibility for the decision. (More charitably, it also allowed them to avoid some political costs, like having to spread projects across multiple political areas to avoid funding cuts.)
      - rockemsockem 1y ago
        Right, reviews, where important design concerns can be raised. IDK what specific design concerns you're referring to, but just because an issue is raised doesn't mean it's a real issue. Again, you don't want two different organizations trying to design one thing.
        bumby 1y ago
        You missed the part where NASA engineers were told to pipe down about concerns because it wasn’t their place to drive the design. There were numerous, the ones I’m familiar with involved touch screens in cockpits and the amount of reliability needed in safety critical hardware.
        rockemsockem 1y ago
        Everyone is wrong sometimes. Dragon seems to be pretty safe, so idk what else to measure that against?
- sc68cal 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - rockemsockem 1y ago
    NASA still sets requirements and invites several companies to compete for contracts with different solutions. See the lunar lander contracts from a few years ago for example. You are ascribing beliefs to be based on others in this thread I think. What I think is that if a company is going to build and provide the solution then they should own the design. NASA should of course get to be involved in reviews and discussions, which they absolutely fucking are, but I do not think that it makes sense for one organization to design something and the other one to build it as if there's like a hard line between these two activities. I'm not convinced that is how it worked in the days of Apollo either as you've just asserted that without citation.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
  - HDThoreaun 1y ago
    NASA has not been effective in 50 years. Maybe time to try something else?
    - bumby 1y ago
      How are you measuring effectiveness? It seems like you might have a pretty shallow perspective on what NASA does and what their goals are. For example, do you know how many mission directorates they have and how they differ?
      - rockemsockem 1y ago
        Not the person you're responding to, but JWT, SLS, and several other projects have suffered extreme bloat in both cost and timeline. Mega projects like that are some of the most public -facing things NASA does, so they unfortunately tend to drive public perception. I will never argue that NASA doesn't accomplish amazing things, but large parts of the organization are ineffective. IDK if I'd go so far as to say the entire organization is ineffective, but large parts are. I also don't think we should cut NASA's budget at all. We should cut the bloat and redirect it to more projects.

johaugum 1y ago

Not really. Early rockets included multiple private contractors like Douglas, Boeing and NAA, but those were basically government projects top to bottom. Single vendor commercial rockets are a recent (2000s) invention.

chrisco255 1y ago
Think of how wasteful and inefficient multi-vendor rockets are as a concept. What complex machine would you engineer in such a way? Would you have the government, rather than buy cars from Ford, GM, Tesla, etc, instead contract out the production to one company for the motor, one for the frame, and one for the interior and instrumentation?
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- johannes1234321 1y ago
  It was the only way to do it at the time, no company would have had the capacity for such a project, including reserves for damages. And even in private businesses it is common to outsource specific elements to external suppliers. The Saturn program was massive.