6 ms·

If you read about Maduro wanting to imprison the leader of a region of Venezuela, who belongs to the opposition party, you'd call it authoritarianism. If you r

by davidw 1y ago

If you read about Maduro wanting to imprison the leader of a region of Venezuela, who belongs to the opposition party, you'd call it authoritarianism. If you read that the Secretary of Defense of Turkey declined to commit to obeying court orders, you'd call it authoritarianism. If you read about Viktor Orban sending actual troops rather than police to a city because of a flimsy pretext, you'd call it authoritarianism. It's happening here, and it's real. It isn't consolidated yet, but it's pretty obviously what they want.

xedrac 1y ago
You're ignoring the massive elephant in the room. The previous administration let millions and millions of completely unvetted and undocumented immigrants into our county, creating an unprecedented crisis. I view Trump's actions as reclaiming our country from the brink. All of the instances you mentioned are simply fallout from the crises Trump was handed, and it astonishes me how liberals cannot see this simple fact.
- martythemaniak 1y ago
  > creating an unprecedented crisis Nope, that's just your brain on right wing propaganda. Nothing of the sort has happened to justify throwing away the rule of law as this administration is doing. It is like murdering someone because you're annoyed that they chew with their mouth open, just an absolutely, wildly disproportionate response to what has happened. Coincidentally (to riff on the GP) it is almost word-for-word the propaganda Orban used in the mid 2010s to consolidate his authoritarian rule of Hungary.
- angrysaki 1y ago
  What are the symptoms of this "unprecedented crisis" and what makes it a crisis?
  - marcusverus 1y ago
    Chicago spent $300 Million on freebies for migrants.[0] The mayor of NYC saying that the migrant crisis "will destroy New York City".[1] 1/3 of polled schools said that the influx of ESL migrant children had had a "significant" impact on their school districts, taking resources and attention away from American schoolkids.[2] 77% of Americans considered the border situation to be either a "Crisis" or a "Major Problem"[3] [0] https://apnews.com/article/chicago-migrants-black-latino-biden-immigration-ab8d7f22eea423d86fb350665b9e66f6 https://apnews.com/article/chicago-migrants-black-latino-bid... [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/07/nyregion/adams-migrants-destroy-nyc.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/07/nyregion/adams-migrants-d... [2] https://www.reuters.com/investigations/an-american-education-classrooms-reshaped-by-record-migrant-arrivals-2024-10-05/ https://www.reuters.com/investigations/an-american-education... [4] https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2024/02/15/how-americans-view-the-situation-at-the-u-s-mexico-border-its-causes-and-consequences/ https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2024/02/15/how-american...
    - angrysaki 1y ago
      So apart from some 300 million number, it's just all vibes? Here I was expecting data about how all these illegal immigrants are causing crimes everywhere at higher rates than americans, or how many cats and dogs they've eaten but I guess there's no actual evidence of a crisis.
      - marcusverus 1y ago
        [flagged]
        angrysaki 1y ago
        Before I put my fedora back on and leave, could you answer this question: Do you truly think the evidence you provided would convince someone ignorant on the matter that there really was a migrant crisis that warrants the Trump administration's behavior?
        marcusverus 1y ago
- ethbr1 1y ago
  People who think that's a massive elephant are shortsighted. You know what illegal immigrants do? Work. For shitty wages. You know what that does? Boosts the US' labor force and economy, which buffers the declining fertility rate [0]. The fact that anti-immigration (of any sort) folks never think beyond first-effects is mind boggling. Illegal immigration causes some problems; it also solves others. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_fertility_rate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_terr...
  - gedy 1y ago
    Well they do take up a lot of housing if you live in areas with many illegal aliens, which folks here always complain about.
  - newhope1978 1y ago
    so your reason that why we need them is because they are wage slaves that will eventually replace us? Why not just use the billions of dollars spent on immigration to boost wages, make life more affordable, and give tax cuts to ACTUAL AMERICANS as an incentive to have more kids?
    - dakr 1y ago
      Tax cuts aren't what people are waiting for to grow their families. It's parental leave, childcare, affordable healthcare, and the feeling that the system their kids will grow up in isn't getting actively gutted in favor of the rich and religious zealots.
    - ethbr1 1y ago
      Economies run on labor. Raging isn't going to change that hard truth. I'm also not sure we see the math the same way. Illegal immigrant = working, not consuming social services (outside of guaranteed entitlements like EMTALA), paying payroll and sales taxes Tax cuts = ?? You think COVID stimulus would have made people understand that flooding more money into a system with limited supply capacity will just lead to price inflation. The way to address quality of life for parents and promote having children is to decrease the economic cost of doing so. PS: Bolding actual americans made me laugh. Actual Americans are anyone who works hard in this country.
- insane_dreamer 1y ago
  > The previous administration let millions and millions of completely unvetted and undocumented immigrants into our county, creating an unprecedented crisis. that's a lie. there were fewer illegal immigrants in 2022 (under Biden) then in 2018 (under Trump) [0] [0] https://ohss.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/2024-06/2024_0418_ohss_estimates-of-the-unauthorized-immigrant-population-residing-in-the-united-states-january-2018%25E2%2580%2593january-2022.pdf https://ohss.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/2024-06/2024_0418_o...
Ray20 1y ago
I am not an American and may not understand what is going on inside, but from the outside it appears that you are simply engaging in political smears. Authoritarianism means oppressing the masses, having an undemocratic government and acting against the will of the people. It happens in Venezuela. It happens in Turkey. It happens in Hungary. It doesn't happen in the US. If anything, what is happening in the US is exactly the opposite: Trump, who won the popular vote, therefore a representative of the oppressed majority, is waging a war against their oppression (as masses seems it) by the authoritarian deep state. If I go to any American factory right now and ask random blue-collar workers how they feel about, for example, public NASA's commitment to "unity, diversity and inclusion in workforce recruitment, hiring, training and management", what will be their average position on this question? So if we try to be fair with terms, here it is quite obvious on which side we have an authoritarian institution, whose views are shared only by a narrow group of the elite and those sections of the population that receive money or are otherwise influenced by the authoritarian government, and which side is fighting against those authoritarianism
- bobthepanda 1y ago
  Orban and Erdogan also won the popular vote, that's hardly a get-out-of-authoritarianism free card.
  - Ray20 1y ago
    >Orban and Erdogan also won the popular vote, that's hardly a get-out-of-authoritarianism free card. You should learn more about the electoral system under authoritarianism. In any free election, Orban or Erdogan have no chance.
    - bobthepanda 1y ago
      Their first elections were not under an authoritarian system yet, their actions turned it authoritarian afterwards. Heck, Orban was already prime minister in 1998 before the current stint, similar to Trump.
    - lossolo 1y ago

by davidw 1y ago

xedrac 1y ago

You're ignoring the massive elephant in the room. The previous administration let millions and millions of completely unvetted and undocumented immigrants into our county, creating an unprecedented crisis. I view Trump's actions as reclaiming our country from the brink. All of the instances you mentioned are simply fallout from the crises Trump was handed, and it astonishes me how liberals cannot see this simple fact.

martythemaniak 1y ago
> creating an unprecedented crisis Nope, that's just your brain on right wing propaganda. Nothing of the sort has happened to justify throwing away the rule of law as this administration is doing. It is like murdering someone because you're annoyed that they chew with their mouth open, just an absolutely, wildly disproportionate response to what has happened. Coincidentally (to riff on the GP) it is almost word-for-word the propaganda Orban used in the mid 2010s to consolidate his authoritarian rule of Hungary.
angrysaki 1y ago
What are the symptoms of this "unprecedented crisis" and what makes it a crisis?
- marcusverus 1y ago
  Chicago spent $300 Million on freebies for migrants.[0] The mayor of NYC saying that the migrant crisis "will destroy New York City".[1] 1/3 of polled schools said that the influx of ESL migrant children had had a "significant" impact on their school districts, taking resources and attention away from American schoolkids.[2] 77% of Americans considered the border situation to be either a "Crisis" or a "Major Problem"[3] [0] https://apnews.com/article/chicago-migrants-black-latino-biden-immigration-ab8d7f22eea423d86fb350665b9e66f6 https://apnews.com/article/chicago-migrants-black-latino-bid... [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/07/nyregion/adams-migrants-destroy-nyc.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/07/nyregion/adams-migrants-d... [2] https://www.reuters.com/investigations/an-american-education-classrooms-reshaped-by-record-migrant-arrivals-2024-10-05/ https://www.reuters.com/investigations/an-american-education... [4] https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2024/02/15/how-americans-view-the-situation-at-the-u-s-mexico-border-its-causes-and-consequences/ https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2024/02/15/how-american...
  - angrysaki 1y ago
    So apart from some 300 million number, it's just all vibes? Here I was expecting data about how all these illegal immigrants are causing crimes everywhere at higher rates than americans, or how many cats and dogs they've eaten but I guess there's no actual evidence of a crisis.
    - marcusverus 1y ago
      [flagged]
      - angrysaki 1y ago
        Before I put my fedora back on and leave, could you answer this question: Do you truly think the evidence you provided would convince someone ignorant on the matter that there really was a migrant crisis that warrants the Trump administration's behavior?
        marcusverus 1y ago
ethbr1 1y ago
People who think that's a massive elephant are shortsighted. You know what illegal immigrants do? Work. For shitty wages. You know what that does? Boosts the US' labor force and economy, which buffers the declining fertility rate [0]. The fact that anti-immigration (of any sort) folks never think beyond first-effects is mind boggling. Illegal immigration causes some problems; it also solves others. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_fertility_rate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_terr...
- gedy 1y ago
  Well they do take up a lot of housing if you live in areas with many illegal aliens, which folks here always complain about.
- newhope1978 1y ago
  so your reason that why we need them is because they are wage slaves that will eventually replace us? Why not just use the billions of dollars spent on immigration to boost wages, make life more affordable, and give tax cuts to ACTUAL AMERICANS as an incentive to have more kids?
  - dakr 1y ago
    Tax cuts aren't what people are waiting for to grow their families. It's parental leave, childcare, affordable healthcare, and the feeling that the system their kids will grow up in isn't getting actively gutted in favor of the rich and religious zealots.
  - ethbr1 1y ago
    Economies run on labor. Raging isn't going to change that hard truth. I'm also not sure we see the math the same way. Illegal immigrant = working, not consuming social services (outside of guaranteed entitlements like EMTALA), paying payroll and sales taxes Tax cuts = ?? You think COVID stimulus would have made people understand that flooding more money into a system with limited supply capacity will just lead to price inflation. The way to address quality of life for parents and promote having children is to decrease the economic cost of doing so. PS: Bolding actual americans made me laugh. Actual Americans are anyone who works hard in this country.
insane_dreamer 1y ago
> The previous administration let millions and millions of completely unvetted and undocumented immigrants into our county, creating an unprecedented crisis. that's a lie. there were fewer illegal immigrants in 2022 (under Biden) then in 2018 (under Trump) [0] [0] https://ohss.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/2024-06/2024_0418_ohss_estimates-of-the-unauthorized-immigrant-population-residing-in-the-united-states-january-2018%25E2%2580%2593january-2022.pdf https://ohss.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/2024-06/2024_0418_o...

Ray20 1y ago

I am not an American and may not understand what is going on inside, but from the outside it appears that you are simply engaging in political smears. Authoritarianism means oppressing the masses, having an undemocratic government and acting against the will of the people. It happens in Venezuela. It happens in Turkey. It happens in Hungary. It doesn't happen in the US. If anything, what is happening in the US is exactly the opposite: Trump, who won the popular vote, therefore a representative of the oppressed majority, is waging a war against their oppression (as masses seems it) by the authoritarian deep state. If I go to any American factory right now and ask random blue-collar workers how they feel about, for example, public NASA's commitment to "unity, diversity and inclusion in workforce recruitment, hiring, training and management", what will be their average position on this question? So if we try to be fair with terms, here it is quite obvious on which side we have an authoritarian institution, whose views are shared only by a narrow group of the elite and those sections of the population that receive money or are otherwise influenced by the authoritarian government, and which side is fighting against those authoritarianism

bobthepanda 1y ago
Orban and Erdogan also won the popular vote, that's hardly a get-out-of-authoritarianism free card.
- Ray20 1y ago
  >Orban and Erdogan also won the popular vote, that's hardly a get-out-of-authoritarianism free card. You should learn more about the electoral system under authoritarianism. In any free election, Orban or Erdogan have no chance.
  - bobthepanda 1y ago
    Their first elections were not under an authoritarian system yet, their actions turned it authoritarian afterwards. Heck, Orban was already prime minister in 1998 before the current stint, similar to Trump.
  - lossolo 1y ago