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On the other hand, it seems like commenters on HN love unifying around deriding a paradigm that hasn't been proven to be hated by the vast majority of iOS users

On the other hand, it seems like commenters on HN love unifying around deriding a paradigm that hasn't been proven to be hated by the vast majority of iOS users (most of which of course are not here and certainly will not care).

nemomarx 1y ago
I think with a product launch you want a better prognosis than "not been proven to be hated" like I would hope the users love it, to justify the work of a new design?
- andsoitis 1y ago
  Surely Apple believes users will love it?
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
eviks 1y ago
Indeed, how dare people form their own opinion and criticize poorly readable text independently of everyone else!
- GeekyBear 1y ago
  Even the first developer beta allows you reduce the transparency of the UI in the Accessibility settings.
  - eviks 1y ago
    So? Are you saying that if you can partially fix bad design via accessibility then you can't call it bad?
afavour 1y ago
I don’t think it’s unreasonable to want large changes like this to have self-evident benefits. It’s going to be an uphill climb for users to adjust to a new UI. Broadly speaking, that’s fine. If the payoff is worth it. What’s the payoff?
rurp 1y ago
My experience is exactly the opposite, most non-techie users hate pointless UI changes. They couldn't care less about some new design paradigm but they care a great deal that some action they've been using for years has now been changed out from under them. For most people a computer is a tool and they care far more about what they can do with the tool than seeing the tool make itself the center of attention for a time. Redesigns are often self-indulgent. Designers like that they get to do something new, employees who stare at the same software every day get to change things up, and managers get a highly visible change they can point to as evidence of their "impact". What's best for the users is often not a top concern.
- nartho 1y ago
  Most people who are working in tech or who are tech literate want a UI that's readable and easy to use, with minimal fluff because they use it extensively Most people who don't really care about tech that much don't like UI changes like you said because it means relearning what they know The ones who love flashy new UIs are the tech enthusiast, the ones who love tech but use them on a surface level only, they are also the ones who will buy new, unproven tech and care little about privacy issues or open source. My guess is it makes a lot of sense for big tech groups to target them instead of the grey beards who won't be convinced anyway, right as they may be.
- heipei 1y ago
  In my experience this affects techie users just as much. Especially when there is a UI that has been crafted and slowly perfected over the years, and where any remaining idiosyncrasy has long been learned by the user, changing that UI has profound negative impact on the productivity of anyone using the platform. I have rarely seen UI changes where users were genuinely excited to have a new UI with the understanding that they'd have to learn new paradigms. Most web apps should still be Bootstrap apps, but of course then you can't put that on a giant dashboard wall at a conference ;)

nemomarx 1y ago

I think with a product launch you want a better prognosis than "not been proven to be hated" like I would hope the users love it, to justify the work of a new design?

andsoitis 1y ago
Surely Apple believes users will love it?
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]

eviks 1y ago

Indeed, how dare people form their own opinion and criticize poorly readable text independently of everyone else!

GeekyBear 1y ago
Even the first developer beta allows you reduce the transparency of the UI in the Accessibility settings.
- eviks 1y ago
  So? Are you saying that if you can partially fix bad design via accessibility then you can't call it bad?

afavour 1y ago

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to want large changes like this to have self-evident benefits. It’s going to be an uphill climb for users to adjust to a new UI. Broadly speaking, that’s fine. If the payoff is worth it. What’s the payoff?

rurp 1y ago

My experience is exactly the opposite, most non-techie users hate pointless UI changes. They couldn't care less about some new design paradigm but they care a great deal that some action they've been using for years has now been changed out from under them. For most people a computer is a tool and they care far more about what they can do with the tool than seeing the tool make itself the center of attention for a time. Redesigns are often self-indulgent. Designers like that they get to do something new, employees who stare at the same software every day get to change things up, and managers get a highly visible change they can point to as evidence of their "impact". What's best for the users is often not a top concern.

nartho 1y ago
Most people who are working in tech or who are tech literate want a UI that's readable and easy to use, with minimal fluff because they use it extensively Most people who don't really care about tech that much don't like UI changes like you said because it means relearning what they know The ones who love flashy new UIs are the tech enthusiast, the ones who love tech but use them on a surface level only, they are also the ones who will buy new, unproven tech and care little about privacy issues or open source. My guess is it makes a lot of sense for big tech groups to target them instead of the grey beards who won't be convinced anyway, right as they may be.
heipei 1y ago
In my experience this affects techie users just as much. Especially when there is a UI that has been crafted and slowly perfected over the years, and where any remaining idiosyncrasy has long been learned by the user, changing that UI has profound negative impact on the productivity of anyone using the platform. I have rarely seen UI changes where users were genuinely excited to have a new UI with the understanding that they'd have to learn new paradigms. Most web apps should still be Bootstrap apps, but of course then you can't put that on a giant dashboard wall at a conference ;)