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When Microsoft has telemetry: * Windows is a spyware machine - how can anyone use it? Year of Linux baby! When Apple has telemetry: * It's working as expecte
by neogodless 1y ago
When Microsoft has telemetry:
* Windows is a spyware machine - how can anyone use it? Year of Linux baby!
When Apple has telemetry:
* It's working as expected.
So... to be fair, is there a thorough comparison of the two? How are they the same, and how are they different?
- jamesy0ung 1y agoApple is nowhere near as evil as Microsoft, so I’m willing to put up with it.
- righthand 1y agoApple has been involved in all the same government spying programs as Microsoft. They do not offer any services or products with E2E encryption that they do not control the key too.
- pmarreck 1y agoBut at least they have E2E encryption. The whole point of which is not having the key to.
- righthand 1y agoThe whole point is that a 3rd party (Apple) doesn’t have the key. It’s not real E2E and it’s still susceptible to government overreach.
- danaris 1y agoNot every Apple service is E2E encrypted, but some of them (like iMessage) are, and it's 100% real E2E.
- ImJamal 1y agoIf you do a forgot password and move to a new device do you lose all your chats?
- danaris 1y agoAFAIK, if you can't get a previous device to authenticate your new device, you will indeed lose your chat history. However, I have several devices that can always authenticate for new ones, so I can't verify this empirically.
- pmarreck 1y agoAs the other person stated, in theory yes, but in practice, if you are an "Apple ecosystem" participant, you usually have another Apple device available that you can auth on. https://chatgpt.com/share/684dae83-a980-8004-8226-d6e13a673d66 https://chatgpt.com/share/684dae83-a980-8004-8226-d6e13a673d...
- pmarreck 1y agoIt's now way more than iMessage, especially if you opt into more: https://chatgpt.com/share/684dae83-a980-8004-8226-d6e13a673d66 https://chatgpt.com/share/684dae83-a980-8004-8226-d6e13a673d...
- DrBenCarson 1y agoStill need your password to use the key
- righthand 1y agoNo Apple can unlock your phone with the master key they used to generate your phone hardware enclave key. This is how the FBI has pressured them in the past to unlock devices.
- DrBenCarson 1y agoApple claims what you’re describing is impossible https://support.apple.com/en-ge/guide/security/sec59b0b31ff/web https://support.apple.com/en-ge/guide/security/sec59b0b31ff/...
- righthand 1y agoWhich specific part of the enclave doc refutes it? This Quora claims otherwise: https://www.quora.com/How-can-we-unlock-our-iPhones-if-we-forgot-the-password-or-Apple-ID-after-resetting-them-How-much-will-this-cost-for-both-phones-including-travel-fees-and-time-invested-in-unlocking-them https://www.quora.com/How-can-we-unlock-our-iPhones-if-we-fo...
- DrBenCarson 1y agoThe exact section is "Root Cryptographic Keys," here is the key passage: ``` A randomly generated UID is fused into the SoC at manufacturing time. Starting with A9 SoCs, the UID is generated by the Secure Enclave TRNG during manufacturing and written to the fuses using a software process that runs entirely in the Secure Enclave. This process protects the UID from being visible outside the device during manufacturing and therefore isn’t available for access or storage by Apple or any of its suppliers. ```
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- 1y ago
- pmarreck 1y agoIt is not. It is real E2E. Or at least, here is my evidence (and before you balk at a chatgpt link, the links to the sources are also in there). What do you have? https://chatgpt.com/share/684dae83-a980-8004-8226-d6e13a673d66 https://chatgpt.com/share/684dae83-a980-8004-8226-d6e13a673d...
- AnonC 1y ago> They do not offer any services or products with E2E encryption that they do not control the key too. That’s way off the mark from reality. You can look at Advanced Data Protection. It’s not enabled by default for the sake of convenience, but it’s an option available to the users.
- 1659447091 1y ago> They do not offer any services or products with E2E encryption that they do not control the key too. Are you saying that Apple still has the keys when Advanced Data Protection is turned on? And has access to the covered data even though they say the keys are only on the trusted devices?
- goosejuice 1y agoWell if you're going to throw that out there, you might as well explain.
- snehk 1y agoBut the things mentioned in the post above yours have nothing to do with telemetry. They're more like core functions to make the system work at all.
- sitzkrieg 1y agotake a look at fbs.smoot.apple.com and argue that isnt telemetry? why does an os need to hit the internet AT ALL to work? osx doesnt of course
- politelemon 1y agoNo that's incorrect. It is listed in TFA.
- neogodless 1y ago> Which then becomes a question of how much time/money to they invest in features for 1% of users? Now how much time do they invest in those same features when the 99% will stumble in there, turn a bunch of stuff off, then call support and ask why their weather widget isn't updating? That sounds like telemetry?
- al_borland 1y agoThe features I was referring to would be a control panel to list all the various remote calls to let uses micromanage what calls they wanted and which ones they didn’t. Inside of those settings could be options to enable/disable telemetry, sure. But also push notifications, weather updates, virus definition updates, etc.
- brookst 1y agoI didn’t see the person you’re replying to ever mention Microsoft. It seems weird to accuse them of hypocrisy?
- neogodless 1y agoThis is a very valid criticism of my post and many that group "opinions" as if they come from a single source. Here, the top-voted comment is OK with Apple software phoning home, but there's no evidence they are not equally OK with Microsoft software phoning home, so I'm contrasting this popular opinion with another popular opinion elsewhere. Here's one example from a different user, where Microsoft is described as "the big daddy of spyware." https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22246187 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22246187 See also this sibling top-level comment from today: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44256951 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44256951
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- daveguy 1y agoMicrosoft put ads in their OS menus. Kindof a stretch to "both sides" this one.
- JCattheATM 1y agoNo it isn't. The context is telemetry and spying, not built in advertising.
- daveguy 1y agoAnd none of the items in the original thread post were about telemetry. They were about functional requirements.
- ffsm8 1y agoI guess you didn't read the article then, there are entries for telemetry. He even helpfully listed the official use case next to the domain name that was accessed.
- ehutch79 1y agoThe people who complain about windows telemetry, arnt going to Mac, they use Arch Linux btw.
- neogodless 1y agoAre you sure Mac users (or at least fans) don't also call or consider Windows telemetry "spyware"? I suspect they hold that opinion too. But yes, Year of the Linux Desktop, baby!
- righthand 1y ago[flagged]
- klodolph 1y agoHonestly I would say “working as expected” for like 99% of Microsoft’s telemetry. I think the only difference is that I fucking hate hate hate OneDrive and so I’m gonna be more upset about the fact that Windows uses it. iCloud does not bother me so I don’t complain about it.
- JohnFen 1y agoApple users tend to trust Apple (whether or not that trust is misplaced is a different topic). Very few people trust Microsoft.