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I'm curious what Microsoft and Ubuntu's experience is as well, so there's a frame of reference. I skimmed that list, and Devil's Advocate; It seems like most o

I'm curious what Microsoft and Ubuntu's experience is as well, so there's a frame of reference. I skimmed that list, and Devil's Advocate; It seems like most of that is functional, stuff that they want to update in the background to make sure you have a better experience when you're back? On the flip, I guess we think Apple is up to something shady? My last understanding was that they were firm they didn't sell user data. Did this change?

sybercecurity 1y ago
My initial thought as well. May be overly chatty, but there may be a good intention behind it like "system seems to be idle for a while, now would be a good time to check for updates" I'd wager Windows does something similar. Linux distros may do it, but also may not since they may not be obsessed with happy eyeball problems and user perception of speed/latency.
roblabla 1y ago
A default linux install is incredibly silent on the network. You might be seeing some mDNS stuff, gnome/firefox may do some requests to detect captive portals, but overall the amount of network traffic is pretty small and manageable. It's important to note that, generally speaking, Linux software does not come with default-enabled telemetry, and for those that do, distros like Debian will routinely patch out phoning home and telemetry from the software they package.
- st3fan 1y ago
  That is only because there is barely any open source software for Linux that is backed by cloud services. Now install Spotify, VSCode, Steam for Linux and you will see the same kind of chatter with backend services.
  - SkyeCA 1y ago
    > That is only because there is barely any open source software for Linux that is backed by cloud services. Some of us would call this a feature. I am quite happy to have control over my computer and the data on it without having to trust third party cloud services.
    - joshstrange 1y ago
      Good, Linux will be perfect for you. The vast majority of people want/need a bit more than that. Most consumers have come to expect a certain baseline such as: - Cloud Drive - Up to date Weather/News - Malware checks - System update checks - Push Notifications and more. Before you say "I don't care about News", sure but lots of people do and everyone has a different subset of the network-traffic-causing features. Yes, this means many things are "on by default" but, again, that's what the average consumer wants. HN is a completely different crowd with, sometimes, different wants/needs as compared to the average user.
      - SkyeCA 1y ago
        Sure some people want the news, but I find it kind of absurd that could justify a computer phoning home regularly. Making an API call when the user opens a news app is more than sufficient and quick enough to not notice. "What about the news widget?" I find it difficult to believe the average user even remembers the news widget exists in Mac OS since it's hidden away in a non-obvious panel. The most compelling cases for phoning home are OS updates and Drive like services, but at the end of the day this should all be easy to disable should the user want to. > HN is a completely different crowd Yes, HN is filled with the very worst kind of techbros who regularly defend bad practices under the guise of saving the average consumer from themselves.
  - nazgulsenpai 1y ago
    "Software I install" is a different metric than the "software that is part of the operating system itself".
  - const_cast 1y ago
    VSCode is particularly chatty on Linux. You can use OpenSnitch to block those connections. I believe a lot of it is around extensions and the extensions market place. IMO, that's not the type of thing that requires constant background connections, and I could actually see that being a kind of vulnerability.
- awinter-py 1y ago
  > distros like Debian will routinely patch out phoning home and telemetry from the software they package yes this. learning about the user-aligned patching in debian's chromium made me feel like I had made the right choice with desktop linux
jqpabc123 1y ago
My last understanding was that they were firm they didn't sell user data. Did this change? My understanding is they have a long term relationship with Google worth about $20 billion a year. Other than money, does anyone really know the full extent of what they exchange? Maybe this doesn't technically count as "selling" your data but it certainly counts as selling access to something important to Google --- which most likely, ultimately involves your data. In other words, I don't believe Google pays them $20B to help maintain user privacy
- SimianSci 1y ago
  Since the deal you mention was part of a lawsuit from the federal government, we actually do know alot about what gets sent between the two companies. The $20 billion a year deal you mention only applies to safari users and ensuring that the default serach engine on apple devices is using Google.com. The deal is far more about controlling competition and denying any potential competitors from being able to cut a deal with apple and thus reach a large volume of highly influential consumers. Im sure there was also value to be found in the search data of users as well, but the deal is mostly anti-competition. There is very little go on beyond general mistrust when it comes to belief that Apple might be selling customer data. Make no mistake, Apple spies on its users almost just as much as other tech companies. The difference looks to be that Apple keeps it all to themselves.

sybercecurity 1y ago

My initial thought as well. May be overly chatty, but there may be a good intention behind it like "system seems to be idle for a while, now would be a good time to check for updates" I'd wager Windows does something similar. Linux distros may do it, but also may not since they may not be obsessed with happy eyeball problems and user perception of speed/latency.

roblabla 1y ago

A default linux install is incredibly silent on the network. You might be seeing some mDNS stuff, gnome/firefox may do some requests to detect captive portals, but overall the amount of network traffic is pretty small and manageable. It's important to note that, generally speaking, Linux software does not come with default-enabled telemetry, and for those that do, distros like Debian will routinely patch out phoning home and telemetry from the software they package.

st3fan 1y ago
That is only because there is barely any open source software for Linux that is backed by cloud services. Now install Spotify, VSCode, Steam for Linux and you will see the same kind of chatter with backend services.
- SkyeCA 1y ago
  > That is only because there is barely any open source software for Linux that is backed by cloud services. Some of us would call this a feature. I am quite happy to have control over my computer and the data on it without having to trust third party cloud services.
  - joshstrange 1y ago
    Good, Linux will be perfect for you. The vast majority of people want/need a bit more than that. Most consumers have come to expect a certain baseline such as: - Cloud Drive - Up to date Weather/News - Malware checks - System update checks - Push Notifications and more. Before you say "I don't care about News", sure but lots of people do and everyone has a different subset of the network-traffic-causing features. Yes, this means many things are "on by default" but, again, that's what the average consumer wants. HN is a completely different crowd with, sometimes, different wants/needs as compared to the average user.
    - SkyeCA 1y ago
      Sure some people want the news, but I find it kind of absurd that could justify a computer phoning home regularly. Making an API call when the user opens a news app is more than sufficient and quick enough to not notice. "What about the news widget?" I find it difficult to believe the average user even remembers the news widget exists in Mac OS since it's hidden away in a non-obvious panel. The most compelling cases for phoning home are OS updates and Drive like services, but at the end of the day this should all be easy to disable should the user want to. > HN is a completely different crowd Yes, HN is filled with the very worst kind of techbros who regularly defend bad practices under the guise of saving the average consumer from themselves.
- nazgulsenpai 1y ago
  "Software I install" is a different metric than the "software that is part of the operating system itself".
- const_cast 1y ago
  VSCode is particularly chatty on Linux. You can use OpenSnitch to block those connections. I believe a lot of it is around extensions and the extensions market place. IMO, that's not the type of thing that requires constant background connections, and I could actually see that being a kind of vulnerability.
awinter-py 1y ago
> distros like Debian will routinely patch out phoning home and telemetry from the software they package yes this. learning about the user-aligned patching in debian's chromium made me feel like I had made the right choice with desktop linux

jqpabc123 1y ago

My last understanding was that they were firm they didn't sell user data. Did this change? My understanding is they have a long term relationship with Google worth about $20 billion a year. Other than money, does anyone really know the full extent of what they exchange? Maybe this doesn't technically count as "selling" your data but it certainly counts as selling access to something important to Google --- which most likely, ultimately involves your data. In other words, I don't believe Google pays them $20B to help maintain user privacy

SimianSci 1y ago
Since the deal you mention was part of a lawsuit from the federal government, we actually do know alot about what gets sent between the two companies. The $20 billion a year deal you mention only applies to safari users and ensuring that the default serach engine on apple devices is using Google.com. The deal is far more about controlling competition and denying any potential competitors from being able to cut a deal with apple and thus reach a large volume of highly influential consumers. Im sure there was also value to be found in the search data of users as well, but the deal is mostly anti-competition. There is very little go on beyond general mistrust when it comes to belief that Apple might be selling customer data. Make no mistake, Apple spies on its users almost just as much as other tech companies. The difference looks to be that Apple keeps it all to themselves.