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This is definitely a new one, but you aren't entirely wrong. A lot of alien lore has racist elements and origins. David Icke's reptilian lore includes antisemit

by krapp 1y ago

This is definitely a new one, but you aren't entirely wrong. A lot of alien lore has racist elements and origins. David Icke's reptilian lore includes antisemitic elements and references the discredited Protocols of the Elders of Zion. The core of ancient alien theory is the belief that non-white races are incapable of complex feats of engineering and civilization (and this is spelled out by Chariots of the Gods author Erik Von Daniken.) And there's a reason the "Nordic" alien race is literally just "white people from space." Dig deep enough under a lot of the folklore, especially where it overlaps with neo-Christian/New World Order stuff and eventually you'll get to the Nazis. Also, you're unfortunately wrong about racism - you absolutely can be an out-and-out racist now. People are more openly and proudly racist now than they have been at any point in my own living memory.

aa-jv 1y ago
Thanks for looking at this objectively. I was expecting to be launched deep into the grey zone on this statement, and it has indeed begun - but I'd really rather talk it out than just get downvoted into oblivion. >A lot of alien lore has racist elements and origins. Inasmuch as most of this lore deals directly with the inferiority/superiority of literal races, I think all of alien lore is about racism. >Also, you're unfortunately wrong about racism - you absolutely can be an out-and-out racist now. People are more openly and proudly racist now than they have been at any point in my own living memory. Oh, I don't think this is the case - at least, not outside the borders of the USA, anyway. Things were far, far more racist in Europe prior to WW2 - which is not to say that racism has been eradicated, just that it was tempered by the need to acknowledge its ultimate product, in the form of ruined cities that had to be rebuilt. Meanwhile, the U.S. has used technological superiority to assert dominance globally, often over non-Western cultures, as seen in interventions in Iraq or Afghanistan. UFOs, as symbols of advanced technology, could resonate with this imperialist mindset, reinforcing hierarchies. For sure, there is a rise in racism within certain states of the Western hemisphere - but there has been a rise in UFO'ism, too - which in my opinion, has allowed for the covert justification of racism, without social retribution, to occur. Leading eventually of course, to more overt racist expression.
- bondarchuk 1y ago
  Don't complain about downvotes, read the rules. You might find The Dark Fantastic interesting.
  - aa-jv 1y ago
    I didn't complain, I did however acknowledge the foreshadowing of incoming downvotes on the basis of expressing an unpopular opinion, even though I believe this aspect does indeed warrant discussion - especially in todays political climate. Thanks for the recommendation - I've added it to my list of things to read on the subject, although I fear it may be targeted for a much different audience.
- krapp 1y ago
  >UFOs, as symbols of advanced technology, could resonate with this imperialist mindset, reinforcing hierarchies. They can, but I disagree they do, universally, in all cases. UFOs do tend to follow the cultural zeitgeist and reflect people's fears and stereotypes, maybe about themselves or their own government, but in a broader and more complex sense than "all of alien lore is about racism" would imply. I tend to slot aliens in the same cultural headspace as angels/demons or fae/cryptids, like Jacques Valee (except I don't believe these beings are actually real and imitating our folklore, so much as actually just being folklore.) For instance,it's interesting how one doesn't hear about alien abductions as often as one used to. Now it's all "interdimensional NHI" and psychic bonding. As if the dehumanizing trauma narratives of Communion served some cathartic purpose that we're now we're moving on from. Also we've moved on from saucers. No one sees saucers anymore, it's all spheres and tic-tacs and "jellyfish."
- graemep 1y ago
  > Oh, I don't think this is the case - at least, not outside the borders of the USA, anyway. Things were far, far more racist in Europe prior to WW2 - which is not to say that racism has been eradicated, just that it was tempered by the need to acknowledge its ultimate product The UK is far less racist than it was in the 1980s, and I think the rest of western Europe seems to be generally similar. That said, while the vast majority are not racist, the racists seem to have got more extreme - I think social media is at least part of the problem there.
strken 1y ago
A lot of everything has racist origins if you squint hard enough. You can make that argument for everything from chemistry (via alchemy and links to eugenics) to car ownership (via white flight and avoiding racially mixed public transport). For some reason, it's easier to see the limitations of that approach when it's applied to common everyday things that everyone does, and much harder when it's applied to conspiracy theories.
- krapp 1y ago
  You don't have to squint as hard to find the racist origins in a lot of conspiracy theory, especially when it draws directly from Nazi propaganda, as you do to get to "car ownership is racist because racists use cars to avoid sitting next to black people on the bus."
  - amanaplanacanal 1y ago
    What I see is more classist, which is evidently still ok with people. They don't want to sit next to the poors on the bus, and don't want them living in their neighborhood, and don't want to see them in the supermarket, etc.
graemep 1y ago
Them by Jon Ronson, a book about conspiracy theorists and the like, has a hilarious story of David Icke being delayed at Canadian immigration until he convinced them that when he really did believe in alien lizards, rather than it being a code word for Jews. They would let a nutcase in, but not a racist. > The core of ancient alien theory is the belief that non-white races are incapable of complex feats of engineering and civilization In its origins, but do the current crop of believers think that way? If they do is it an unconscious prejudice or a conscious one? I think there is a spectrum of racism here from complete unawareness of the racist origins, to blatant racism. There are also some white people's achievements, such as Stonehenge, that they attribute to aliens. > Dig deep enough under a lot of the folklore, especially where it overlaps with neo-Christian/New World Order stuff and eventually you'll get to the Nazis. New World Order people do seem to overlap heavily with the "white replacement" crowd, so yes.
lelanthran 1y ago
> The core of ancient alien theory is the belief that non-white races are incapable of complex feats of engineering and civilization I think you're reaching here - I've never got that as the "core" message and/or belief. The core message and/or belief was always "Primitive versions of us could never have created such complex feats of engineering[1]", quickly followed on with "even today, we cannot create such things without our recently invented technology". It's a stretch to leap from "even today, we cannot create such things without our recently invented technology" to "only white people could have created such things." [1] I also dunno why you added "and civilisation" in there; that's not what I read in any of the Hancock and similar books.

by krapp 1y ago

aa-jv 1y ago

Thanks for looking at this objectively. I was expecting to be launched deep into the grey zone on this statement, and it has indeed begun - but I'd really rather talk it out than just get downvoted into oblivion. >A lot of alien lore has racist elements and origins. Inasmuch as most of this lore deals directly with the inferiority/superiority of literal races, I think all of alien lore is about racism. >Also, you're unfortunately wrong about racism - you absolutely can be an out-and-out racist now. People are more openly and proudly racist now than they have been at any point in my own living memory. Oh, I don't think this is the case - at least, not outside the borders of the USA, anyway. Things were far, far more racist in Europe prior to WW2 - which is not to say that racism has been eradicated, just that it was tempered by the need to acknowledge its ultimate product, in the form of ruined cities that had to be rebuilt. Meanwhile, the U.S. has used technological superiority to assert dominance globally, often over non-Western cultures, as seen in interventions in Iraq or Afghanistan. UFOs, as symbols of advanced technology, could resonate with this imperialist mindset, reinforcing hierarchies. For sure, there is a rise in racism within certain states of the Western hemisphere - but there has been a rise in UFO'ism, too - which in my opinion, has allowed for the covert justification of racism, without social retribution, to occur. Leading eventually of course, to more overt racist expression.

bondarchuk 1y ago
Don't complain about downvotes, read the rules. You might find The Dark Fantastic interesting.
- aa-jv 1y ago
  I didn't complain, I did however acknowledge the foreshadowing of incoming downvotes on the basis of expressing an unpopular opinion, even though I believe this aspect does indeed warrant discussion - especially in todays political climate. Thanks for the recommendation - I've added it to my list of things to read on the subject, although I fear it may be targeted for a much different audience.
krapp 1y ago
>UFOs, as symbols of advanced technology, could resonate with this imperialist mindset, reinforcing hierarchies. They can, but I disagree they do, universally, in all cases. UFOs do tend to follow the cultural zeitgeist and reflect people's fears and stereotypes, maybe about themselves or their own government, but in a broader and more complex sense than "all of alien lore is about racism" would imply. I tend to slot aliens in the same cultural headspace as angels/demons or fae/cryptids, like Jacques Valee (except I don't believe these beings are actually real and imitating our folklore, so much as actually just being folklore.) For instance,it's interesting how one doesn't hear about alien abductions as often as one used to. Now it's all "interdimensional NHI" and psychic bonding. As if the dehumanizing trauma narratives of Communion served some cathartic purpose that we're now we're moving on from. Also we've moved on from saucers. No one sees saucers anymore, it's all spheres and tic-tacs and "jellyfish."
graemep 1y ago
> Oh, I don't think this is the case - at least, not outside the borders of the USA, anyway. Things were far, far more racist in Europe prior to WW2 - which is not to say that racism has been eradicated, just that it was tempered by the need to acknowledge its ultimate product The UK is far less racist than it was in the 1980s, and I think the rest of western Europe seems to be generally similar. That said, while the vast majority are not racist, the racists seem to have got more extreme - I think social media is at least part of the problem there.

strken 1y ago

A lot of everything has racist origins if you squint hard enough. You can make that argument for everything from chemistry (via alchemy and links to eugenics) to car ownership (via white flight and avoiding racially mixed public transport). For some reason, it's easier to see the limitations of that approach when it's applied to common everyday things that everyone does, and much harder when it's applied to conspiracy theories.

krapp 1y ago
You don't have to squint as hard to find the racist origins in a lot of conspiracy theory, especially when it draws directly from Nazi propaganda, as you do to get to "car ownership is racist because racists use cars to avoid sitting next to black people on the bus."
- amanaplanacanal 1y ago
  What I see is more classist, which is evidently still ok with people. They don't want to sit next to the poors on the bus, and don't want them living in their neighborhood, and don't want to see them in the supermarket, etc.

graemep 1y ago

Them by Jon Ronson, a book about conspiracy theorists and the like, has a hilarious story of David Icke being delayed at Canadian immigration until he convinced them that when he really did believe in alien lizards, rather than it being a code word for Jews. They would let a nutcase in, but not a racist. > The core of ancient alien theory is the belief that non-white races are incapable of complex feats of engineering and civilization In its origins, but do the current crop of believers think that way? If they do is it an unconscious prejudice or a conscious one? I think there is a spectrum of racism here from complete unawareness of the racist origins, to blatant racism. There are also some white people's achievements, such as Stonehenge, that they attribute to aliens. > Dig deep enough under a lot of the folklore, especially where it overlaps with neo-Christian/New World Order stuff and eventually you'll get to the Nazis. New World Order people do seem to overlap heavily with the "white replacement" crowd, so yes.

lelanthran 1y ago

> The core of ancient alien theory is the belief that non-white races are incapable of complex feats of engineering and civilization I think you're reaching here - I've never got that as the "core" message and/or belief. The core message and/or belief was always "Primitive versions of us could never have created such complex feats of engineering[1]", quickly followed on with "even today, we cannot create such things without our recently invented technology". It's a stretch to leap from "even today, we cannot create such things without our recently invented technology" to "only white people could have created such things." [1] I also dunno why you added "and civilisation" in there; that's not what I read in any of the Hancock and similar books.