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> and serious issues with hardware support across the board on top (Linux) I'm tired of this myth. Just like with Mac and Windows, you choose the suitable hard

> and serious issues with hardware support across the board on top (Linux) I'm tired of this myth. Just like with Mac and Windows, you choose the suitable hardware or, better, buy preinstalled. There are no compatibility issue with my Librem 14. Even suspend works 100% of the time. Also, GNU/Linux is not an OS but there are many very different OSes for different use cases and visual preferences.

mschuster91 1y ago
> There are no compatibility issue with my Librem 14. Even suspend works 100% of the time. Can you walk into any big box store and buy that thing, or a Framework? No. I am talking about OS choices accessible to the general public, not to nerds with dedicated knowledge. The experience of installing Linux on anything available at a big box store is likely to result in a multitude of issues. No actor in Linux at large makes any effort to cater to the general public, and that's the point I'm making. > Also, GNU/Linux is not an OS but there are many very different OSes for different use cases and visual preferences. ... and the consequence of that multitude of How To Do Things is precisely what keeps Linux adoption so low. Steve Ballmer had a point in "developers developers developers" - it's no wonder that there aren't that many native software products viable for actual commercial use on Linux.
- fsflover 1y ago
  > Can you walk into any big box store and buy that thing, or a Framework? No. This is a real problem and I wonder if it might be connected with the lobbying of the Win-Mac duopoly.
  - mschuster91 1y ago
    It's a scale problem. Walmart or whatever, they buy and sell insane quantities of goods - they make life insanely difficult for vendors and either you're someone as large as HP, Acer, Asus etc who can get by with margins less than 1% but make up for it in volume, or you can't compete with them at all and stay out of the big box stores for good. That's why anti-trust legislation and enforcement is actually important... to prevent ossification of scale that effectively prohibits new actors from entering the market.
- adrian_b 1y ago
  I assume that you can walk in many big box stores and buy a Dell computer or a HP computer with preinstalled Linux. I am not sure about brick-and-mortar stores, because I have not used such stores for many decades, but with on-line shopping it is certainly easy to find a Dell or HP computer with preinstalled Linux that supports the hardware as well as Windows. Moreover, choosing Ubuntu over Windows frequently saves at least one hundred $. I have such a Dell laptop (Dell Precision), which came with a preinstalled Ubuntu that worked perfectly (even if I have wiped it and installed another Linux by myself, because I do not like Ubuntu).
mft_ 1y ago
That's not most people's reality. 99.999%+ of people out there in the world don't start with a desire for a Linux setup; and so many of the small proportion who at some point want to consider it start with pre-existing hardware. And yes, having tried and largely burnt out trying to use Linux on several different computers on different occasions, it can be hugely frustrating, if not ultimately impossible.
- fsflover 1y ago
  It's like trying to install Windows on a Macbook: Your're on your own here. Don't blame Microsoft or Apple for your issues.
  - IAmBroom 1y ago
    Name a computer manufacturer that supplies laptops built specifically for Linux, instead of as a smaller-market option.
    - fsflover 1y ago
      System76, Purism, Taxedo, Pine64, Oxide.
      - mschuster91 1y ago
        These are all small market vendors.
        fsflover 1y ago
        This doesn't affect the message in my original post.
      - steveklabnik 1y ago
        Oxide does not make laptops.

mschuster91 1y ago

> There are no compatibility issue with my Librem 14. Even suspend works 100% of the time. Can you walk into any big box store and buy that thing, or a Framework? No. I am talking about OS choices accessible to the general public, not to nerds with dedicated knowledge. The experience of installing Linux on anything available at a big box store is likely to result in a multitude of issues. No actor in Linux at large makes any effort to cater to the general public, and that's the point I'm making. > Also, GNU/Linux is not an OS but there are many very different OSes for different use cases and visual preferences. ... and the consequence of that multitude of How To Do Things is precisely what keeps Linux adoption so low. Steve Ballmer had a point in "developers developers developers" - it's no wonder that there aren't that many native software products viable for actual commercial use on Linux.

fsflover 1y ago
> Can you walk into any big box store and buy that thing, or a Framework? No. This is a real problem and I wonder if it might be connected with the lobbying of the Win-Mac duopoly.
- mschuster91 1y ago
  It's a scale problem. Walmart or whatever, they buy and sell insane quantities of goods - they make life insanely difficult for vendors and either you're someone as large as HP, Acer, Asus etc who can get by with margins less than 1% but make up for it in volume, or you can't compete with them at all and stay out of the big box stores for good. That's why anti-trust legislation and enforcement is actually important... to prevent ossification of scale that effectively prohibits new actors from entering the market.
adrian_b 1y ago
I assume that you can walk in many big box stores and buy a Dell computer or a HP computer with preinstalled Linux. I am not sure about brick-and-mortar stores, because I have not used such stores for many decades, but with on-line shopping it is certainly easy to find a Dell or HP computer with preinstalled Linux that supports the hardware as well as Windows. Moreover, choosing Ubuntu over Windows frequently saves at least one hundred $. I have such a Dell laptop (Dell Precision), which came with a preinstalled Ubuntu that worked perfectly (even if I have wiped it and installed another Linux by myself, because I do not like Ubuntu).

mft_ 1y ago

That's not most people's reality. 99.999%+ of people out there in the world don't start with a desire for a Linux setup; and so many of the small proportion who at some point want to consider it start with pre-existing hardware. And yes, having tried and largely burnt out trying to use Linux on several different computers on different occasions, it can be hugely frustrating, if not ultimately impossible.

fsflover 1y ago
It's like trying to install Windows on a Macbook: Your're on your own here. Don't blame Microsoft or Apple for your issues.
- IAmBroom 1y ago
  Name a computer manufacturer that supplies laptops built specifically for Linux, instead of as a smaller-market option.
  - fsflover 1y ago
    System76, Purism, Taxedo, Pine64, Oxide.
    - mschuster91 1y ago
      These are all small market vendors.
      - fsflover 1y ago
        This doesn't affect the message in my original post.
    - steveklabnik 1y ago
      Oxide does not make laptops.