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There is a darker side to Samuel Pepys unfortunately. Either unknown, glossed over or ignored. Pepys had many admirable qualities but these have to be placed a

by sherr 1y ago

There is a darker side to Samuel Pepys unfortunately. Either unknown, glossed over or ignored. Pepys had many admirable qualities but these have to be placed against his extremely bad behaviour towards women. Today he would be called a "sexual predator" and he was almost certainly also a rapist. Unfortunately, women were (and still are in many places) seen as sexual objects and this view was common in the 18th Century. I became aware of this from watching Guy de la Bédoyère's YouTube video "Confessions of Samuel Pepys. His Private Revelations" [1] where he discussed the good and the bad in Pepys, having just completed a new book about the diary and man. The video is good, as is the channel (he's a historian I was familar with from his Time Team appearances). I don't like mentioning things like this usually, but for the sake of a true picture, it is worth it. [1] https://youtu.be/uxaPbPm7sMk?si=W9vIJ_JD-BynAlOp https://youtu.be/uxaPbPm7sMk?si=W9vIJ_JD-BynAlOp

dash2 1y ago
I'm a bit skeptical. For a start, you seem not to know which century Pepys was from! The link is to a 50 minute video. Perhaps you could briefly explain what leads you to believe Pepys was a rapist.
stronglikedan 1y ago
> I don't like mentioning things like this usually, but for the sake of a true picture, it is worth it. I'd say you do like it, which is the only reason you did it, since it's not worth it since it adds nothing to the context.
- speerer 1y ago
  IMO it adds a lot: the article is about cuts from the diary, the result being that the picture is distorted. This is half the point of the link isn't it?
  - fsckboy 1y ago
    you two should split the difference: it does add a lot, and he does like mentioning it, which is good because it adds a lot every time.
    - speerer 1y ago
      No difference between us there :)
Veen 1y ago
Pepys attitudes and behaviours in that regard were unremarkable for a man of his time and class. It would have been more surprising - and more worth commenting on - if he’d anachronistically endorsed modern standards of sexual propriety.
- verisimi 1y ago
  I barely have a clue about the attitudes and behaviours of the people around me - and yet you think you know not only Pepys' but also his contemporaries' attitudes and behaviours, so much so that you feel comfortable making a generalised comment about people who lived 3-400 years ago. Remarkable! Perhaps you are a historian.
  - rpmisms 1y ago
    You could still confidently say that casual sex is normal in America currently, even without a perfect window into the soul of every American.
    - verisimi 1y ago
      Can I? Is it really?
      - southernplaces7 1y ago
        Yes, and yes. Why not quit being obtuse for the sake of disagreeing for disagreement's sake?
        verisimi 1y ago
        I'm simply considering my personal experience. It's not aligned with these general comments.
        southernplaces7 1y ago
        Do you live inside an amish community perhaps? Nobody who at all interacts with the vast majority of American society can say with a straight face that casual sex isn't common and normal. I'm not saying that as a moral judgement, I have no problems with casual sex, but as a basic widespread tendency of said modern, generally liberal society.
adamors 1y ago
Thanks for this comment, the book also sounds really interesting https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/236044978 https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/236044978
hodgesrm 1y ago
I suspect most people who read unabridged Pepys for any length of time end up feeling very ambivalent about him as a person. His diary contains the some of the deepest introspection of a human life--both the good and the bad--in the history of literature. Rousseau was a cheap marketer by comparison. That depth of revelation is one of the things that make Pepys hard to put down, even as you find his personality increasingly disagreeable. It is a truly remarkable work. Edit: added unabridged for clarity
- billfruit 1y ago
  How does it compare to Montaigne? Of course Montaigne wasn't writing a diary, he was writing a study about himself.
  - hodgesrm 1y ago
    Montaigne's Essays are primarily philosophical reflections. He did write a very interesting travel diary recounting his voyage from France to visit the Pope in Rome. [0] That diary has a wealth of observations covering everything from the riches of German towns to the number of kidney stones he passed after drinking the waters at various spas along the way. If you ever wondered what travel was like in earlier centuries, it's a delightful account but nothing like Pepys. Pepys recorded a vast range of topics from affairs of state to the consistency of his stools (and everything in between). [0] https://www.gutenberg.org/files/70838/70838-h/70838-h.htm https://www.gutenberg.org/files/70838/70838-h/70838-h.htm
    - billfruit 1y ago
      Montaigne also wrote much about random every day things, about food, rest, sleep, etc. Statecraft was also a common theme in his essays.
tialaramex 1y ago
I mean, yeah, he's a rapist, but I dunno if you're paying attention however this century #metoo is about women generally being of the opinion that yeah, lots of men are what you're calling "sexual predators" and getting away with it. A rapist is currently President of the United States of America. You likely work with and admire "sexual predators". Works like this diary serve the same purpose as SF shorts, they're holding up a mirror to our world, Sam has wasted days because telephones don't exist and so it's impossible for him to reach a person quickly if they're not where he expected - but "I'm a powerful man so I decided to have sex with a less powerful woman and she couldn't stop me" is one of the top stories in the news site I was just looking at. Plus ça change
Exoristos 1y ago
He had affairs with staff and found his wife annoying. Is that what you're referring to?
- tialaramex 1y ago
  Ah yes, "affairs" with staff. He has sex with young female servants who, if they resist him can expect to have their employment immediately terminated, it's an enormous power imbalance. It's a problem that you look at that and see an "affair".
  - jasonfarnon 1y ago
    OK but taking advantage of a "power imbalance" definitely isn't what I had in mind when reading 'he would be called a "sexual predator" and he was almost certainly also a rapist.' Which perhaps was the goal of using that kind of language.
- rsynnott 1y ago
  Have you read the _unabridged_ version? (Versions published before the 80s were heavily censored). He, ah, gets up to a lot more than that.
- drabbiticus 1y ago
  From https://www.neh.gov/article/honest-fault https://www.neh.gov/article/honest-fault > In an incident that is difficult to interpret as anything but rape, Pepys recounts entering the home of a ship’s carpenter—a man very much under his control, since Pepys was a naval official—and noting that, after a struggle, “finally I had my will of her.” His only recorded regret is “a mighty pain” in his finger, which he injured during the apparent assault. > The victim, identified only as Mrs. Bagwell, had been instructed to offer herself to Pepys by her husband, who thought it would help his advancement. “The story,” notes Tomalin, “is a shameful one of a woman used by two bullies: her husband, hoping for promotion, and Pepys, who was to arrange it. Pepys did not present it in quite those terms, but it is clearly how it was.” > Another obvious victim of Pepys’s sexual involvements beyond his household was his wife. In 1665, he had married fifteen-year-old Elizabeth St. Michel, the daughter of a French immigrant. Loveman describes the marriage as a “love match, albeit a tempestuous one.” The diary records the couple’s arguments over Pepys’s infidelities, and there were other tensions in the marriage. In an especially heated quarrel over Elizabeth’s management of the household, Pepys gave her a black eye. > The full record of Pepys’s mistreatment of women is too extensive to detail here. That grim record could fill a book—and, in fact, it has. In The Dark Side of Samuel Pepys, author Geoffrey Pimm explores Pepys’s predations at length, drawing on the diarist’s own accounts of his misdeeds to build the case against him. Pepys, writes Pimm, “faithfully recorded acts of moral turpitude that in later centuries might have caused his name to be blazoned across the newspapers and in some instances, most probably lead him to be arraigned in the courts.”
thomassmith65 1y ago
If Pepys's sex life is a secret, it's the worst kept secret in English history.
IncreasePosts 1y ago
Does anyone actually aspire to be like Pepys?

by sherr 1y ago

dash2 1y ago

I'm a bit skeptical. For a start, you seem not to know which century Pepys was from! The link is to a 50 minute video. Perhaps you could briefly explain what leads you to believe Pepys was a rapist.

stronglikedan 1y ago

> I don't like mentioning things like this usually, but for the sake of a true picture, it is worth it. I'd say you do like it, which is the only reason you did it, since it's not worth it since it adds nothing to the context.

speerer 1y ago
IMO it adds a lot: the article is about cuts from the diary, the result being that the picture is distorted. This is half the point of the link isn't it?
- fsckboy 1y ago
  you two should split the difference: it does add a lot, and he does like mentioning it, which is good because it adds a lot every time.
  - speerer 1y ago
    No difference between us there :)

Veen 1y ago

Pepys attitudes and behaviours in that regard were unremarkable for a man of his time and class. It would have been more surprising - and more worth commenting on - if he’d anachronistically endorsed modern standards of sexual propriety.

verisimi 1y ago
I barely have a clue about the attitudes and behaviours of the people around me - and yet you think you know not only Pepys' but also his contemporaries' attitudes and behaviours, so much so that you feel comfortable making a generalised comment about people who lived 3-400 years ago. Remarkable! Perhaps you are a historian.
- rpmisms 1y ago
  You could still confidently say that casual sex is normal in America currently, even without a perfect window into the soul of every American.
  - verisimi 1y ago
    Can I? Is it really?
    - southernplaces7 1y ago
      Yes, and yes. Why not quit being obtuse for the sake of disagreeing for disagreement's sake?
      - verisimi 1y ago
        I'm simply considering my personal experience. It's not aligned with these general comments.
        southernplaces7 1y ago
        Do you live inside an amish community perhaps? Nobody who at all interacts with the vast majority of American society can say with a straight face that casual sex isn't common and normal. I'm not saying that as a moral judgement, I have no problems with casual sex, but as a basic widespread tendency of said modern, generally liberal society.

adamors 1y ago

Thanks for this comment, the book also sounds really interesting https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/236044978 https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/236044978

hodgesrm 1y ago

I suspect most people who read unabridged Pepys for any length of time end up feeling very ambivalent about him as a person. His diary contains the some of the deepest introspection of a human life--both the good and the bad--in the history of literature. Rousseau was a cheap marketer by comparison. That depth of revelation is one of the things that make Pepys hard to put down, even as you find his personality increasingly disagreeable. It is a truly remarkable work. Edit: added unabridged for clarity

billfruit 1y ago
How does it compare to Montaigne? Of course Montaigne wasn't writing a diary, he was writing a study about himself.
- hodgesrm 1y ago
  Montaigne's Essays are primarily philosophical reflections. He did write a very interesting travel diary recounting his voyage from France to visit the Pope in Rome. [0] That diary has a wealth of observations covering everything from the riches of German towns to the number of kidney stones he passed after drinking the waters at various spas along the way. If you ever wondered what travel was like in earlier centuries, it's a delightful account but nothing like Pepys. Pepys recorded a vast range of topics from affairs of state to the consistency of his stools (and everything in between). [0] https://www.gutenberg.org/files/70838/70838-h/70838-h.htm https://www.gutenberg.org/files/70838/70838-h/70838-h.htm
  - billfruit 1y ago
    Montaigne also wrote much about random every day things, about food, rest, sleep, etc. Statecraft was also a common theme in his essays.

tialaramex 1y ago

I mean, yeah, he's a rapist, but I dunno if you're paying attention however this century #metoo is about women generally being of the opinion that yeah, lots of men are what you're calling "sexual predators" and getting away with it. A rapist is currently President of the United States of America. You likely work with and admire "sexual predators". Works like this diary serve the same purpose as SF shorts, they're holding up a mirror to our world, Sam has wasted days because telephones don't exist and so it's impossible for him to reach a person quickly if they're not where he expected - but "I'm a powerful man so I decided to have sex with a less powerful woman and she couldn't stop me" is one of the top stories in the news site I was just looking at. Plus ça change

Exoristos 1y ago

He had affairs with staff and found his wife annoying. Is that what you're referring to?

tialaramex 1y ago
Ah yes, "affairs" with staff. He has sex with young female servants who, if they resist him can expect to have their employment immediately terminated, it's an enormous power imbalance. It's a problem that you look at that and see an "affair".
- jasonfarnon 1y ago
  OK but taking advantage of a "power imbalance" definitely isn't what I had in mind when reading 'he would be called a "sexual predator" and he was almost certainly also a rapist.' Which perhaps was the goal of using that kind of language.
rsynnott 1y ago
Have you read the _unabridged_ version? (Versions published before the 80s were heavily censored). He, ah, gets up to a lot more than that.
drabbiticus 1y ago
From https://www.neh.gov/article/honest-fault https://www.neh.gov/article/honest-fault > In an incident that is difficult to interpret as anything but rape, Pepys recounts entering the home of a ship’s carpenter—a man very much under his control, since Pepys was a naval official—and noting that, after a struggle, “finally I had my will of her.” His only recorded regret is “a mighty pain” in his finger, which he injured during the apparent assault. > The victim, identified only as Mrs. Bagwell, had been instructed to offer herself to Pepys by her husband, who thought it would help his advancement. “The story,” notes Tomalin, “is a shameful one of a woman used by two bullies: her husband, hoping for promotion, and Pepys, who was to arrange it. Pepys did not present it in quite those terms, but it is clearly how it was.” > Another obvious victim of Pepys’s sexual involvements beyond his household was his wife. In 1665, he had married fifteen-year-old Elizabeth St. Michel, the daughter of a French immigrant. Loveman describes the marriage as a “love match, albeit a tempestuous one.” The diary records the couple’s arguments over Pepys’s infidelities, and there were other tensions in the marriage. In an especially heated quarrel over Elizabeth’s management of the household, Pepys gave her a black eye. > The full record of Pepys’s mistreatment of women is too extensive to detail here. That grim record could fill a book—and, in fact, it has. In The Dark Side of Samuel Pepys, author Geoffrey Pimm explores Pepys’s predations at length, drawing on the diarist’s own accounts of his misdeeds to build the case against him. Pepys, writes Pimm, “faithfully recorded acts of moral turpitude that in later centuries might have caused his name to be blazoned across the newspapers and in some instances, most probably lead him to be arraigned in the courts.”

thomassmith65 1y ago

If Pepys's sex life is a secret, it's the worst kept secret in English history.

IncreasePosts 1y ago

Does anyone actually aspire to be like Pepys?