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> Arabs invaded during Arab colonisation in 650 A.D Oh, like Europeans invaded North America a thousand years later? So who has the rights to Noth America?

nailer 1y ago
Yes. That's why we don't protest native Americans that want to live in America.
- runarberg 1y ago
  A lot of Palestinian activists do support the Land back movement in the USA. I‘m curious if you do? Or if you support indigenous rights in general (with the exception of Palestinians)? I‘m also curious why you seem so fixated on the Arab conquest of the region in the 7th century, but not the Roman occupation 6 centuries earlier, or the Ottoman conquest 8 centuries later (or the British occupation later still)? Especially since the Roman occupation was far more brutal and left a much greater wound in Jewish history than any of the later conquests and occupations of the region. For clarification, in 136 CE Hadrian banned Jews (as well as Christians) from living in Jerusalem after having ethnically cleansed the city of Jewish presence. Neither the Arabs nor the Ottomans did that. This was reversed a couple of centuries later. Ironically, the city remained unsegregated (where Jews, Christians, and Muslims were all allowed to live in the city and practice their respective religion) all the way until Israel conquered half the city in 1948, and occupied the other half of it in 1967, where it now excludes any Palestinian presence, be they Christian or Muslim.
  - tguvot 1y ago
    Joran ethnically cleansed all Jews from East Jerusalem and West Bank. And then annexed it. With regards "unsegregated": " For example, in public baths in Jerusalem, where all residents are allowed to go, Jews must continue to be distinguished from Muslims. In everyday life, the Jew must wear a yellow turban. Removing it or wearing any other color is interpreted as an attempt to pass oneself off as a Muslim. Jewish women must wear a yellow garment or piece of cloth to distinguish themselves from Muslim women. The nudity of public baths meant that another distinctive sign was required: any Jew entering the baths had to carry a bell to signal his arrival." aka "the day to day live of dhimmi" Also, you make it sound like there are no Palestinians in Jerusalem. Wikipedia helpfully states: " In 2022, Jerusalem had a population of some 971,800 residents, of which almost 60% were Jews and almost 40% Palestinians.[14][note 4] In 2020, the population was 951,100, of which Jews comprised 570,100 (59.9%), Muslims 353,800 (37.2%), Christians 16,300 (1.7%), and 10,800 unclassified (1.1%)."
    - runarberg 1y ago
      Sorry, I misspoke in my posting. I was gonna say zones which exclude Palestinians, i.e. the city is now segregated as a result of the Israeli occupation and illegal annexation of the city. The segregation of 1948 was a direct result of Israels unilateral declaration of independence. So I think we can say that the city was unsegregated from the fourth century, throughout the Arab and the Ottoman conquest, all the way up to the formation of Israel, at which point the city became segregated again for the first time since the Roman period. Just to clarify: I’m not a fan of segregation, it was not OK when Jordan did it, it was very bad that the Romans did it. And it is even worse that Israel is still doing it.
      - nailer 1y ago
        Israeli Arabs and Druze are allowed into Jerusalem. It’s just not people from a specific territory with the history of causing violence towards Israelis.
        runarberg 1y ago
        Not everywhere: Ramat Eshkol was established as a Jewish neighborhood soon after the 1967 occupation. It is one of 9 inner settlements in East Jerusalem where Palestinians are not allowed. These “just not people from a specific territory” are Palestinians who are Christian or Muslim, because of their ethnicity, regardless of criminal history. This is segregation.
        dlubarov 1y ago
        By Palestinians do you mean Palestinian nationals? Palestinians who are Israeli citizens are certainly allowed Ramat Eshkol, like any other community.
        runarberg 1y ago
        You know that doesn’t happen, and you know why. Israel has extreme racial discrimination, and the settlers that live in these neighborhoods are the some of the worst case of racial sectarian violence. There are around 220,000 Jewish Israeli Settlers living in East Jerusalem, how many non-jewish Israelis do you think live in these neighborhoods? I tried to search for the number but couldn’t. I would be surprised if it is more then a 1000. Whether this reality is because of policy or not is not what I am debating (although the answer seems kind of obvious; unless you dispute Israel’s apartheid policies). The reality is that Jerusalem is currently a segregated city.
  - nailer 1y ago
    > A lot of Palestinian activists do support the Land back movement in the USA. I‘m curious if you do? No. I wouldn’t want to send the arabs back to the arabian peninsula, or get that land my family had in Ireland back from the British either. But history is history. Jews were there 1600 years before arab colonisation. > I‘m also curious why you seem so fixated on the Arab conquest I’m not focused on the arab conquest, happy to talk about BGRBACOB rather than just A but people are discussing Palestinians (who before the 1960s referred to themselves as Arabs). I’m not sure if you’re unaware of the concepts of Dhimmis and Jizya or the violence against Jews from Arabs in the early 20th century, which prompted the partition of British Palestine into one Jewish and two Arab states. Jewish people living as second class citizens under the Arabs was not a viable option. Allowing Israelis and foreigners of all nations and religions to visit Jerusalem, yet not allowing Palestinians to enter Israel makes sense given security issues, I’m sure you would do the same. Again though, HN isn’t a politics chat and we’re all about to be warned by Dan G or the new person to stop this conversation so I’m probably not going to participate.

nailer 1y ago

Yes. That's why we don't protest native Americans that want to live in America.

runarberg 1y ago
A lot of Palestinian activists do support the Land back movement in the USA. I‘m curious if you do? Or if you support indigenous rights in general (with the exception of Palestinians)? I‘m also curious why you seem so fixated on the Arab conquest of the region in the 7th century, but not the Roman occupation 6 centuries earlier, or the Ottoman conquest 8 centuries later (or the British occupation later still)? Especially since the Roman occupation was far more brutal and left a much greater wound in Jewish history than any of the later conquests and occupations of the region. For clarification, in 136 CE Hadrian banned Jews (as well as Christians) from living in Jerusalem after having ethnically cleansed the city of Jewish presence. Neither the Arabs nor the Ottomans did that. This was reversed a couple of centuries later. Ironically, the city remained unsegregated (where Jews, Christians, and Muslims were all allowed to live in the city and practice their respective religion) all the way until Israel conquered half the city in 1948, and occupied the other half of it in 1967, where it now excludes any Palestinian presence, be they Christian or Muslim.
- tguvot 1y ago
  Joran ethnically cleansed all Jews from East Jerusalem and West Bank. And then annexed it. With regards "unsegregated": " For example, in public baths in Jerusalem, where all residents are allowed to go, Jews must continue to be distinguished from Muslims. In everyday life, the Jew must wear a yellow turban. Removing it or wearing any other color is interpreted as an attempt to pass oneself off as a Muslim. Jewish women must wear a yellow garment or piece of cloth to distinguish themselves from Muslim women. The nudity of public baths meant that another distinctive sign was required: any Jew entering the baths had to carry a bell to signal his arrival." aka "the day to day live of dhimmi" Also, you make it sound like there are no Palestinians in Jerusalem. Wikipedia helpfully states: " In 2022, Jerusalem had a population of some 971,800 residents, of which almost 60% were Jews and almost 40% Palestinians.[14][note 4] In 2020, the population was 951,100, of which Jews comprised 570,100 (59.9%), Muslims 353,800 (37.2%), Christians 16,300 (1.7%), and 10,800 unclassified (1.1%)."
  - runarberg 1y ago
    Sorry, I misspoke in my posting. I was gonna say zones which exclude Palestinians, i.e. the city is now segregated as a result of the Israeli occupation and illegal annexation of the city. The segregation of 1948 was a direct result of Israels unilateral declaration of independence. So I think we can say that the city was unsegregated from the fourth century, throughout the Arab and the Ottoman conquest, all the way up to the formation of Israel, at which point the city became segregated again for the first time since the Roman period. Just to clarify: I’m not a fan of segregation, it was not OK when Jordan did it, it was very bad that the Romans did it. And it is even worse that Israel is still doing it.
    - nailer 1y ago
      Israeli Arabs and Druze are allowed into Jerusalem. It’s just not people from a specific territory with the history of causing violence towards Israelis.
      - runarberg 1y ago
        Not everywhere: Ramat Eshkol was established as a Jewish neighborhood soon after the 1967 occupation. It is one of 9 inner settlements in East Jerusalem where Palestinians are not allowed. These “just not people from a specific territory” are Palestinians who are Christian or Muslim, because of their ethnicity, regardless of criminal history. This is segregation.
        dlubarov 1y ago
        By Palestinians do you mean Palestinian nationals? Palestinians who are Israeli citizens are certainly allowed Ramat Eshkol, like any other community.
        runarberg 1y ago
        You know that doesn’t happen, and you know why. Israel has extreme racial discrimination, and the settlers that live in these neighborhoods are the some of the worst case of racial sectarian violence. There are around 220,000 Jewish Israeli Settlers living in East Jerusalem, how many non-jewish Israelis do you think live in these neighborhoods? I tried to search for the number but couldn’t. I would be surprised if it is more then a 1000. Whether this reality is because of policy or not is not what I am debating (although the answer seems kind of obvious; unless you dispute Israel’s apartheid policies). The reality is that Jerusalem is currently a segregated city.
- nailer 1y ago
  > A lot of Palestinian activists do support the Land back movement in the USA. I‘m curious if you do? No. I wouldn’t want to send the arabs back to the arabian peninsula, or get that land my family had in Ireland back from the British either. But history is history. Jews were there 1600 years before arab colonisation. > I‘m also curious why you seem so fixated on the Arab conquest I’m not focused on the arab conquest, happy to talk about BGRBACOB rather than just A but people are discussing Palestinians (who before the 1960s referred to themselves as Arabs). I’m not sure if you’re unaware of the concepts of Dhimmis and Jizya or the violence against Jews from Arabs in the early 20th century, which prompted the partition of British Palestine into one Jewish and two Arab states. Jewish people living as second class citizens under the Arabs was not a viable option. Allowing Israelis and foreigners of all nations and religions to visit Jerusalem, yet not allowing Palestinians to enter Israel makes sense given security issues, I’m sure you would do the same. Again though, HN isn’t a politics chat and we’re all about to be warned by Dan G or the new person to stop this conversation so I’m probably not going to participate.