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This is a sensible move. systemd is a good piece of software, and foundational Linux infrastructure which by now is very widely deployed. I’ve been doing Linux

This is a sensible move. systemd is a good piece of software, and foundational Linux infrastructure which by now is very widely deployed. I’ve been doing Linux a long time and my experience is that systemd is much more pleasant to work with than the brittle duct tape and shell script stuff which came before.

pcpuser 1y ago
Agreed. I wonder how many people in this thread hating on systemd have actually tried to work with upstream. They are an extremely pleasant and welcoming community who are willing to work with you on the most trivial stuff.
- pseudalopex 1y ago
  systemd maintainers were extremely unpleasant, unwelcoming, and unwilling to work with others in my experience.
guilhas 1y ago
Xorg was also a "good piece of software, foundational Linux infrastructure and very wildly deployed"
- jononor 1y ago
  Still is?
  - guilhas 1y ago
    100%, I won't replace x11 it until I feel all my automation tools work correctly or the "way.." alternative is better Was just making the parallel with Wayland, how frustrating it has been for a lot of people, how everyone preaching correct software design, should be simple/protocols/standards/modular with correct responsibilities between projects... and how fast everyone forgot it
greatgib 1y ago
Systemd is crap. Works in the main use case, mess up otherwise. It is the windows kernel of linux distributions. Here for example, suddenly systemd will be mandatory despite systemd not caring for multiple session of a single user. Not only not yet implemented but totally that don't need it personally so no one can want to have it. And so again the capability of our linux based distribution will be restricted for something that was just working for decades. Again, we can also notice how systemd people try to force systemd usage down or throats by making it mandatory for core parts like the login. Where it is not the responsibility of the initsystem to deal with that (except in windows) and if the thing was not a damned crap, it would be easy to switch to alternatives with clear interfaces.
- calcifer 1y ago
  > Where it is not the responsibility of the initsystem systemd is not an init system. It's an umbrella project with many distinct tools and services, only one of which is an init provider.
  - pona-a 1y ago
    What makes it problematic is that they still end up with cross-dependencies. I might find resolved or logind great tools, but I can't use them without systemd, even though I can sitll use systemd without resolved. They all reinforce systemd as an irreplaceable component that will only grow more hooks for these subprojects, becoming increasingly unimplementable and complex.
- jeroenhd 1y ago
  systemd is far from perfect, but it's the best we've got on Linux. Treating systemd like an init system is like treating your car like a Bluetooth speaker: yes, you can connect your phone to the speaker system over bluetooth and yes you can take the speakers with you to most places, but the speakers are only a small part of what you're taking along with you Nobody is forcing systemd down anyone's throats. You can use init.d if you like, or OpenRC, or whatever you prefer. What's happening instead is that people who maintain software are no longer interested in maintaing init.d scripts or working around the missing features many supposed alternatives lack.

pcpuser 1y ago

Agreed. I wonder how many people in this thread hating on systemd have actually tried to work with upstream. They are an extremely pleasant and welcoming community who are willing to work with you on the most trivial stuff.

pseudalopex 1y ago
systemd maintainers were extremely unpleasant, unwelcoming, and unwilling to work with others in my experience.

guilhas 1y ago

Xorg was also a "good piece of software, foundational Linux infrastructure and very wildly deployed"

jononor 1y ago
Still is?
- guilhas 1y ago
  100%, I won't replace x11 it until I feel all my automation tools work correctly or the "way.." alternative is better Was just making the parallel with Wayland, how frustrating it has been for a lot of people, how everyone preaching correct software design, should be simple/protocols/standards/modular with correct responsibilities between projects... and how fast everyone forgot it

greatgib 1y ago

Systemd is crap. Works in the main use case, mess up otherwise. It is the windows kernel of linux distributions. Here for example, suddenly systemd will be mandatory despite systemd not caring for multiple session of a single user. Not only not yet implemented but totally that don't need it personally so no one can want to have it. And so again the capability of our linux based distribution will be restricted for something that was just working for decades. Again, we can also notice how systemd people try to force systemd usage down or throats by making it mandatory for core parts like the login. Where it is not the responsibility of the initsystem to deal with that (except in windows) and if the thing was not a damned crap, it would be easy to switch to alternatives with clear interfaces.

calcifer 1y ago
> Where it is not the responsibility of the initsystem systemd is not an init system. It's an umbrella project with many distinct tools and services, only one of which is an init provider.
- pona-a 1y ago
  What makes it problematic is that they still end up with cross-dependencies. I might find resolved or logind great tools, but I can't use them without systemd, even though I can sitll use systemd without resolved. They all reinforce systemd as an irreplaceable component that will only grow more hooks for these subprojects, becoming increasingly unimplementable and complex.
jeroenhd 1y ago
systemd is far from perfect, but it's the best we've got on Linux. Treating systemd like an init system is like treating your car like a Bluetooth speaker: yes, you can connect your phone to the speaker system over bluetooth and yes you can take the speakers with you to most places, but the speakers are only a small part of what you're taking along with you Nobody is forcing systemd down anyone's throats. You can use init.d if you like, or OpenRC, or whatever you prefer. What's happening instead is that people who maintain software are no longer interested in maintaing init.d scripts or working around the missing features many supposed alternatives lack.