5 ms·

Worth noting that denuvo causes a lot of hitching, massive load time increases and overall performance problems. Denuvo marketing dept likes to say this isn't t

Worth noting that denuvo causes a lot of hitching, massive load time increases and overall performance problems. Denuvo marketing dept likes to say this isn't true but you only have to look at the before/after on games with and without it, monster hunter world was a very stark example. I have no doubt denuvo is also massively contributing to the performance problems on Monster Hunter Wilds as well.

shmerl 1y ago
Of course. DRM can never improve user experience, it's an anti-user feature by definition.
- Tadpole9181 1y ago
  Not going to take sides on the particular debate, but one could certainly argue that DRM is just a double-edge blade. The world is less fun with less art and games. And those require money to be made. The cost of securing that or making legitimate purchases cheaper (broadening the legal market) may be the initial online requirement and potential performance impacts. Again, I'm not saying Denuvo is or is not a net in one way or the other. Just that there is room for gray.
  - account42 1y ago
    There are plenty of commercial games that make the development costs back without any use of DRM. Also, art and games don't require money to be made. And I'd also argue that we don't actually need more games since we already have many - getting more is nice but we don't have to throw away our principles for it.
- billmcneale 1y ago
  > it's an anti-user feature by definition. That's an extremely naive take that shows some stark ignorance of the tech and market forces at work. From a tech standpoint, Denuvo negatively impacting performance has been debunked many times over (see my previous post about that). On the economical side, you need to realize that whenever you are playing and enjoying a game, it's most likely due to the fact that the previous games sold by that developer have been successful in making money, which was most likely made possible by Denuvo. In other words, making piracy harder allows the next generation of games to be created.
  - shmerl 1y ago
    It's the truth standpoint. DRM is an overreaching preemptive policing, i.e. by its mere definition it's always aimed against the user, therefore it's always an anti-feature. Things like fourth amendment exist for a simple reason that overreaching policing skews into being abusive. Police could always argue abusive policing "helps prevent crime" same as copyright maximalists could argue DRM "helps prevent piracy". But both would be invalid due to overreaching nature or such policing. To put this concept into perspective. DRM runs on your personal device, in your personal digital space, for the benefit of someone who tries to police you, treating you as an a priory criminal. So conceptually it's not any better than what fourth amendment is aimed to prevent. Excusing such concepts with "market forces" is simply cringe.
    - billmcneale 1y ago
      > by its mere definition it's always aimed against the user, therefore it's always an anti-feature. Describing it as "anti user" is theoretically correct but practically incorrect. It's true that it might prevent mods and possible future uses if the servers go down, but in practice, users don't care, as is demonstrated by the fact that games that contain Denuvo routinely sell in the millions and users have no idea it's even there, and they will never know. Overreaching? I don't know. Companies put out a product, you're free not to buy it if you don't like it. That's one of the reasons why I call this natural market forces. > So conceptually it's not any better than what fourth amendment is aimed to prevent. That's a gross exaggeration. The Fourth amendment is about unreasonable searches by the government, I completely fail to see how willingly buying a digital product from non governmental organizations is connected to Fourth amendment in any rational way. Again, at the end of the day, nobody forces you to buy that product, hence "natural market forces". The fact that millions of these games are being bought every month tells me users don't feel that whatever flaws, perceived or real, Denuvo has matters less to them than playing these games.
      - shmerl 1y ago
        Policing by some corpo isn't better than policing by the government. The basis of why overreaching policing is bad doesn't depend on it. Compare DRM to someone installing surveillance in your house to preemptively "stop any potential crimes" ... namely, by you. Are you going to be OK with that just because it's some corpo doing it and not the government? You get the point of why the above is wrong. DRM is wrong exactly for the same reason. The ethical problem with DRM is that it invades your digital privacy based on presumption of guilt. Whether users care or don't care doesn't really affect the concept. A lot of things in digital space are less tangible for people to care becasue they are clueless, which doesn't mean these things aren't as dangerous and damaging when abused. And those are fundamental problems, before we even get to bad consequences that you mentioned, like DRM damaging digital preservation, losing access to your purchases and so on, which are bad too, but not on the level the above is bad. So to sum it up, DRM is always anti user in many senses.
GuB-42 1y ago
I think Denuvo impact on performance is as much exaggerated by gamers as it is downplayed by Denuvo. I didn't play MH:World on PC but from what I have seen MH:Wilds suffers from piss-poor optimization that is unrelated to the (two!) DRM they have put in. It may be Denuvo, but from what I've seen, it is just the usual laziness that is prevalent in most AAA games today. Instead of spending the performance budget where it matters by having programmers collaborate with artists, they just throw everything at the engine which ends up overwhelmed and in turn throws everything to DLSS and framegen resulting in an ugly mess (but a raytraced ugly mess!) if you don't have the latest overpriced hardware. And it may be the same problem with Denuvo. Denuvo doesn't have to cause massive performance problems, but developers have to implement it correctly, using license checks sparingly, and certainly not in performance-critical code. Also note that when the publisher removes Denuvo, it may also come with other performance optimizations, not everything comes from the removal of Denuvo.
- LightHugger 1y ago
  I don't think is exaggerated by gamers, if anything it's widely understated. The issue is that denuvo affects the 1% lows and latency much more than the average FPS. But the 1% lows and latency have an outsized effect on player experience, average framerate can be the same but if 1% lows and latency are miserable then you are playing a completely different game. You are not wrong about the additional failure of AAA to keep their games optimized but the ways denuvo affects performance are particularly insidious.
- accelbred 1y ago
  MH World didn't have Denuvo on release, but it was added with the expansion. It was thus easy to tell.
billmcneale 1y ago
> Worth noting that denuvo causes a lot of hitching, massive load time increases and overall performance problems. There is pretty much zero evidence that this is true and some credible evidence that it is untrue. For example, plenty of games have had Denuvo removed after a few months by the publisher and showed zero improvement in performance. This fake narrative is being pushed by software pirates bitter that Denuvo is being so effective at preventing them from stealing games.
- LightHugger 1y ago
  Uh, proof: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKsesO3bdv4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKsesO3bdv4 So like, no? are you a denuvo associate? Or what's the story here, what are your credentials?

shmerl 1y ago

Of course. DRM can never improve user experience, it's an anti-user feature by definition.

Tadpole9181 1y ago
Not going to take sides on the particular debate, but one could certainly argue that DRM is just a double-edge blade. The world is less fun with less art and games. And those require money to be made. The cost of securing that or making legitimate purchases cheaper (broadening the legal market) may be the initial online requirement and potential performance impacts. Again, I'm not saying Denuvo is or is not a net in one way or the other. Just that there is room for gray.
- account42 1y ago
  There are plenty of commercial games that make the development costs back without any use of DRM. Also, art and games don't require money to be made. And I'd also argue that we don't actually need more games since we already have many - getting more is nice but we don't have to throw away our principles for it.
billmcneale 1y ago
> it's an anti-user feature by definition. That's an extremely naive take that shows some stark ignorance of the tech and market forces at work. From a tech standpoint, Denuvo negatively impacting performance has been debunked many times over (see my previous post about that). On the economical side, you need to realize that whenever you are playing and enjoying a game, it's most likely due to the fact that the previous games sold by that developer have been successful in making money, which was most likely made possible by Denuvo. In other words, making piracy harder allows the next generation of games to be created.
- shmerl 1y ago
  It's the truth standpoint. DRM is an overreaching preemptive policing, i.e. by its mere definition it's always aimed against the user, therefore it's always an anti-feature. Things like fourth amendment exist for a simple reason that overreaching policing skews into being abusive. Police could always argue abusive policing "helps prevent crime" same as copyright maximalists could argue DRM "helps prevent piracy". But both would be invalid due to overreaching nature or such policing. To put this concept into perspective. DRM runs on your personal device, in your personal digital space, for the benefit of someone who tries to police you, treating you as an a priory criminal. So conceptually it's not any better than what fourth amendment is aimed to prevent. Excusing such concepts with "market forces" is simply cringe.
  - billmcneale 1y ago
    > by its mere definition it's always aimed against the user, therefore it's always an anti-feature. Describing it as "anti user" is theoretically correct but practically incorrect. It's true that it might prevent mods and possible future uses if the servers go down, but in practice, users don't care, as is demonstrated by the fact that games that contain Denuvo routinely sell in the millions and users have no idea it's even there, and they will never know. Overreaching? I don't know. Companies put out a product, you're free not to buy it if you don't like it. That's one of the reasons why I call this natural market forces. > So conceptually it's not any better than what fourth amendment is aimed to prevent. That's a gross exaggeration. The Fourth amendment is about unreasonable searches by the government, I completely fail to see how willingly buying a digital product from non governmental organizations is connected to Fourth amendment in any rational way. Again, at the end of the day, nobody forces you to buy that product, hence "natural market forces". The fact that millions of these games are being bought every month tells me users don't feel that whatever flaws, perceived or real, Denuvo has matters less to them than playing these games.
    - shmerl 1y ago
      Policing by some corpo isn't better than policing by the government. The basis of why overreaching policing is bad doesn't depend on it. Compare DRM to someone installing surveillance in your house to preemptively "stop any potential crimes" ... namely, by you. Are you going to be OK with that just because it's some corpo doing it and not the government? You get the point of why the above is wrong. DRM is wrong exactly for the same reason. The ethical problem with DRM is that it invades your digital privacy based on presumption of guilt. Whether users care or don't care doesn't really affect the concept. A lot of things in digital space are less tangible for people to care becasue they are clueless, which doesn't mean these things aren't as dangerous and damaging when abused. And those are fundamental problems, before we even get to bad consequences that you mentioned, like DRM damaging digital preservation, losing access to your purchases and so on, which are bad too, but not on the level the above is bad. So to sum it up, DRM is always anti user in many senses.

GuB-42 1y ago

I think Denuvo impact on performance is as much exaggerated by gamers as it is downplayed by Denuvo. I didn't play MH:World on PC but from what I have seen MH:Wilds suffers from piss-poor optimization that is unrelated to the (two!) DRM they have put in. It may be Denuvo, but from what I've seen, it is just the usual laziness that is prevalent in most AAA games today. Instead of spending the performance budget where it matters by having programmers collaborate with artists, they just throw everything at the engine which ends up overwhelmed and in turn throws everything to DLSS and framegen resulting in an ugly mess (but a raytraced ugly mess!) if you don't have the latest overpriced hardware. And it may be the same problem with Denuvo. Denuvo doesn't have to cause massive performance problems, but developers have to implement it correctly, using license checks sparingly, and certainly not in performance-critical code. Also note that when the publisher removes Denuvo, it may also come with other performance optimizations, not everything comes from the removal of Denuvo.

LightHugger 1y ago
I don't think is exaggerated by gamers, if anything it's widely understated. The issue is that denuvo affects the 1% lows and latency much more than the average FPS. But the 1% lows and latency have an outsized effect on player experience, average framerate can be the same but if 1% lows and latency are miserable then you are playing a completely different game. You are not wrong about the additional failure of AAA to keep their games optimized but the ways denuvo affects performance are particularly insidious.
accelbred 1y ago
MH World didn't have Denuvo on release, but it was added with the expansion. It was thus easy to tell.

billmcneale 1y ago

> Worth noting that denuvo causes a lot of hitching, massive load time increases and overall performance problems. There is pretty much zero evidence that this is true and some credible evidence that it is untrue. For example, plenty of games have had Denuvo removed after a few months by the publisher and showed zero improvement in performance. This fake narrative is being pushed by software pirates bitter that Denuvo is being so effective at preventing them from stealing games.

LightHugger 1y ago
Uh, proof: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKsesO3bdv4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKsesO3bdv4 So like, no? are you a denuvo associate? Or what's the story here, what are your credentials?