4 ms·

“Good and just” are subjective.

by jaoane 1y ago

spwa4 1y ago
The agreement between the US and the ICC has been broken a LOOOONG time ago: https://www.hrw.org/news/2002/05/06/united-states-unsigning-treaty-war-crimes-court https://www.hrw.org/news/2002/05/06/united-states-unsigning-... This paints a stark negative picture of the US. However, of course, as soon as you consider intent of signing ... and the fact that some signatories to the Rome statute, like Palestina or South Africa, have signed it without any intent to carry out their side of the agreement, and that the ICC has in fact accepted these members (kind of). The idea of the ICC ... was supposedly the same idea that created Gaza in 2007. If you give them something in trade for cooperating with the treaty, they'll cooperate. Of course, reality was they greedily accepted what they got (e.g. Palestina immediately tried suing Israel), but never carried out their side of the agreement. Palestina, for example, in their "Martyr fund", paid out money to people the ICC said they should arrest, but never took any action and several times publicly declared they would never arrest any Palestinian, no matter what they did, for the ICC. (their "Martyr's fund" paid money to Palestinians according to how many Jews they had killed and/or wounded [1], which the PA committed a $330 million per year budget for). South Africa has now twice publicly protected people they should arrest (Omar Al Bashir and Putin) against the ICC. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_...
- mytailorisrich 1y ago
  Perhaps this illustrates one of the reasons why the US withdrew... I imagine many very 'nice' countries would try to go after the Great Satan.
- DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
  The Palestinians joined the ICC because they correctly concluded that they have much more to gain from the application of international law than Israel does. The Palestinians are vastly outgunned by Israel, which militarily occupies the Palestinian territories. The Palestinians correctly believe that if everyone is forced to follow international law, it will be a huge net benefit the Palestinians. Of course, the Israelis have no incentive at all to submit to international law, because Israel can enforce whatever it wants through military force. It's a David vs. Goliath fight. The Palestinians have very few cards to play. International public opinion and international law are two of those cards.
  - spwa4 1y ago
    The Palestinian "project" is to destroy Israel (well, not really, the real project is to have the conflict last forever, for "aid"). That is not possible in International law. They have, obviously, not changed their mind. Israel does not occupy "the Palestinian territories". It does not occupy Gaza (not even now, or at least only about half). The Israeli have a LONG history of submitting to international law, including retreating from Gaza in 2006 ... I mean, we can keep going with getting the facts and prejudice out of your post, but ... The reality is that Palestinians have a dream of eliminating Israel. As they showed before and during the war of 1948, and the wars after that, they want to massacre Jews to achieve that. A long time ago, probably before even 1970s, with help from the KGB, Arafat El-Masri (that's his full name btw, "the Egyptian mountain of knowledge") was an Egyptian KGB agent that scammed the Soviets and the UN out of literally billions of dollars, and that was his only goal). Palestine was created (it did not exist, except as a Jewish state before 1948, a colony of the British Empire, and as a colony of the last 3 caliphates, and a Roman province before that) as a scheme to collect money from international institutions, and that's what it still is. Both Hamas and the PA want conflict, because that gets them about 800$ per month per Palestinian monthly (and that's just the public part). That makes it VERY important for Palestinian leadership to neither lose nor win the conflict, but to keep the conflict, the deaths, the suffering going for eternity, ideally from the side of a Qatarese pool. There is not a single population on the planet, no matter how badly off they are, that gets 10% of what Palestinians get, on a per-capita basis. Palestinians are absolute geniuses at this. Did you know there are Palestinian "refugees" living in New York, who have never once left the US, who receive an UNRWA pension (tax free, I might add)?
    - DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
      The Palestinians don't have anything against Jews. If you frame this conflict in terms of antisemitism, you just fundamentally misunderstand it. The Palestinians really couldn't care less about the religion of the people who kicked them off of their land. The issue that that an outside group of people came in and took over Palestine, and expelled the native population. This isn't a continuation of the history of oppression of Jews in Europe. It's a totally different conflict, in which the religions of the people involved are completely incidental. > Both Hamas and the PA want conflict It sounds like you're still living in the 1970s, when the PLO was engaged in armed resistance against Israel. Those times are long gone. The Palestinian Authority (dominated by the PLO) has tried for 30 years to work with Israel. The last thing it wants is conflict. Israel has been bombing Gaza for 20 months now, and what has the PA done? Nothing. It's actually incredible how passive the PA is. > There is not a single population on the planet, no matter how badly off they are, that gets 10% of what Palestinians get, on a per-capita basis. Palestinians are absolute geniuses at this. Oh yes, how lucky the Palestinians are. I hear Israeli bombs are filled with butter tarts and pixie dust.

“Good and just” are subjective.

by jaoane 1y ago

“Good and just” are subjective.

The agreement between the US and the ICC has been broken a LOOOONG time ago: https://www.hrw.org/news/2002/05/06/united-states-unsigning-treaty-war-crimes-court https://www.hrw.org/news/2002/05/06/united-states-unsigning-... This paints a stark negative picture of the US. However, of course, as soon as you consider intent of signing ... and the fact that some signatories to the Rome statute, like Palestina or South Africa, have signed it without any intent to carry out their side of the agreement, and that the ICC has in fact accepted these members (kind of). The idea of the ICC ... was supposedly the same idea that created Gaza in 2007. If you give them something in trade for cooperating with the treaty, they'll cooperate. Of course, reality was they greedily accepted what they got (e.g. Palestina immediately tried suing Israel), but never carried out their side of the agreement. Palestina, for example, in their "Martyr fund", paid out money to people the ICC said they should arrest, but never took any action and several times publicly declared they would never arrest any Palestinian, no matter what they did, for the ICC. (their "Martyr's fund" paid money to Palestinians according to how many Jews they had killed and/or wounded [1], which the PA committed a $330 million per year budget for). South Africa has now twice publicly protected people they should arrest (Omar Al Bashir and Putin) against the ICC. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_...

mytailorisrich 1y ago
Perhaps this illustrates one of the reasons why the US withdrew... I imagine many very 'nice' countries would try to go after the Great Satan.
DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
The Palestinians joined the ICC because they correctly concluded that they have much more to gain from the application of international law than Israel does. The Palestinians are vastly outgunned by Israel, which militarily occupies the Palestinian territories. The Palestinians correctly believe that if everyone is forced to follow international law, it will be a huge net benefit the Palestinians. Of course, the Israelis have no incentive at all to submit to international law, because Israel can enforce whatever it wants through military force. It's a David vs. Goliath fight. The Palestinians have very few cards to play. International public opinion and international law are two of those cards.
- spwa4 1y ago
  The Palestinian "project" is to destroy Israel (well, not really, the real project is to have the conflict last forever, for "aid"). That is not possible in International law. They have, obviously, not changed their mind. Israel does not occupy "the Palestinian territories". It does not occupy Gaza (not even now, or at least only about half). The Israeli have a LONG history of submitting to international law, including retreating from Gaza in 2006 ... I mean, we can keep going with getting the facts and prejudice out of your post, but ... The reality is that Palestinians have a dream of eliminating Israel. As they showed before and during the war of 1948, and the wars after that, they want to massacre Jews to achieve that. A long time ago, probably before even 1970s, with help from the KGB, Arafat El-Masri (that's his full name btw, "the Egyptian mountain of knowledge") was an Egyptian KGB agent that scammed the Soviets and the UN out of literally billions of dollars, and that was his only goal). Palestine was created (it did not exist, except as a Jewish state before 1948, a colony of the British Empire, and as a colony of the last 3 caliphates, and a Roman province before that) as a scheme to collect money from international institutions, and that's what it still is. Both Hamas and the PA want conflict, because that gets them about 800$ per month per Palestinian monthly (and that's just the public part). That makes it VERY important for Palestinian leadership to neither lose nor win the conflict, but to keep the conflict, the deaths, the suffering going for eternity, ideally from the side of a Qatarese pool. There is not a single population on the planet, no matter how badly off they are, that gets 10% of what Palestinians get, on a per-capita basis. Palestinians are absolute geniuses at this. Did you know there are Palestinian "refugees" living in New York, who have never once left the US, who receive an UNRWA pension (tax free, I might add)?
  - DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
    The Palestinians don't have anything against Jews. If you frame this conflict in terms of antisemitism, you just fundamentally misunderstand it. The Palestinians really couldn't care less about the religion of the people who kicked them off of their land. The issue that that an outside group of people came in and took over Palestine, and expelled the native population. This isn't a continuation of the history of oppression of Jews in Europe. It's a totally different conflict, in which the religions of the people involved are completely incidental. > Both Hamas and the PA want conflict It sounds like you're still living in the 1970s, when the PLO was engaged in armed resistance against Israel. Those times are long gone. The Palestinian Authority (dominated by the PLO) has tried for 30 years to work with Israel. The last thing it wants is conflict. Israel has been bombing Gaza for 20 months now, and what has the PA done? Nothing. It's actually incredible how passive the PA is. > There is not a single population on the planet, no matter how badly off they are, that gets 10% of what Palestinians get, on a per-capita basis. Palestinians are absolute geniuses at this. Oh yes, how lucky the Palestinians are. I hear Israeli bombs are filled with butter tarts and pixie dust.