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I agree with the argument, but... > [Would we allow a situation where] a foreign power could force them anytime to cut Europe’s power? We did just that with

I agree with the argument, but... > [Would we allow a situation where] a foreign power could force them anytime to cut Europe’s power? We did just that with Russian gas imports. It took a massive effort to transition of these imports after Russia closed the tap.

StanislavPetrov 1y ago
It wasn't Russia who blew up the Nord Stream pipeline..
- holowoodman 1y ago
  But Russia stopped exporting gas through that pipeline using nonsensical excuses a few weeks before it was blown up by the Ukrainians. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_Stream https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_Stream
  - StanislavPetrov 1y ago
    Nonsensical excuses like the people who wanted to buy their gas wouldn't pay them in their own currency? If I'm selling you my car, it is my right to say I only accept US dollars. If you insist on only offering me Mexican pesos, it isn't "nonsensical" when I say no, and refuse to sell you the car unless you pay US dollars. It is amazing how objective reality and basic common sense go out the window when it comes to the Ukraine/Russia situation. https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/gas-still-flows-russia-europe-buyers-navigate-putins-rouble-order-2022-04-01/ https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/gas-still-flows-russ...
    - riffraff 1y ago
      The request for payment in rubles came about when contracts were already signed. If you unilaterally decide to change the terms of a contract it's quite obvious that the other party may not agree.
    - Certhas 1y ago
      Russia decided to invade Ukraine. Russia decided to not fill EU gas storage to usual levels ahead of the invasion. Russia decided to not fulfill its contractual obligations in retaliation to the sanctions imposed by the EU. Objective reality is only inconvenient to Putin's apologists.
- deleted 1y ago
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- deleted 1y ago
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- nosianu 1y ago
  It was Russia that stopped delivering gas through the pipeline. It was already non-functioning when it was blown up, the gas inside was static, non-moving, the pressure only kept up to prevent pipe-deterioration. That was unilateral, there were no sanctions, and Russia refused to take delivery of parts they had claimed they needed. Even before the war, the German subsidiary of Gazprom had already started deliberately lowering the amount of gas stored underground in Germany, at a time when it was usually being filled up for the next winter. Examples, there are many articles from around that time: https://www.dw.com/en/eu-gas-russia-nord-stream-crisis/a-66668256 https://www.dw.com/en/eu-gas-russia-nord-stream-crisis/a-666... (it shows the timeline, the explosions were inconsequential, gas had already long stopped flowing) September 2022: "Russia cuts off gas exports to Europe via Nord Stream indefinitely"-- https://edition.cnn.com/2022/09/02/energy/nord-stream-1-pipeline-turned-off https://edition.cnn.com/2022/09/02/energy/nord-stream-1-pipe... August 2022: "Nord Stream 1: Russia switches off gas pipeline citing maintenance" -- https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/aug/31/nord-stream-1-russia-switches-off-gas-pipeline-citing-maintenance https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/aug/31/nord-stream...
Scarblac 1y ago
And we replaced it with imports from the US. And most oil is from the Middle East, of course. Being completely energy independent is easier said than done.
- danaris 1y ago
  But it's much, much easier with renewable energy. We may have to mine coal, oil, and natural gas in specific places, but everywhere has access to the sun and wind.

StanislavPetrov 1y ago

It wasn't Russia who blew up the Nord Stream pipeline..

holowoodman 1y ago
But Russia stopped exporting gas through that pipeline using nonsensical excuses a few weeks before it was blown up by the Ukrainians. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_Stream https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_Stream
- StanislavPetrov 1y ago
  Nonsensical excuses like the people who wanted to buy their gas wouldn't pay them in their own currency? If I'm selling you my car, it is my right to say I only accept US dollars. If you insist on only offering me Mexican pesos, it isn't "nonsensical" when I say no, and refuse to sell you the car unless you pay US dollars. It is amazing how objective reality and basic common sense go out the window when it comes to the Ukraine/Russia situation. https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/gas-still-flows-russia-europe-buyers-navigate-putins-rouble-order-2022-04-01/ https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/gas-still-flows-russ...
  - riffraff 1y ago
    The request for payment in rubles came about when contracts were already signed. If you unilaterally decide to change the terms of a contract it's quite obvious that the other party may not agree.
  - Certhas 1y ago
    Russia decided to invade Ukraine. Russia decided to not fill EU gas storage to usual levels ahead of the invasion. Russia decided to not fulfill its contractual obligations in retaliation to the sanctions imposed by the EU. Objective reality is only inconvenient to Putin's apologists.
deleted 1y ago
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deleted 1y ago
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nosianu 1y ago
It was Russia that stopped delivering gas through the pipeline. It was already non-functioning when it was blown up, the gas inside was static, non-moving, the pressure only kept up to prevent pipe-deterioration. That was unilateral, there were no sanctions, and Russia refused to take delivery of parts they had claimed they needed. Even before the war, the German subsidiary of Gazprom had already started deliberately lowering the amount of gas stored underground in Germany, at a time when it was usually being filled up for the next winter. Examples, there are many articles from around that time: https://www.dw.com/en/eu-gas-russia-nord-stream-crisis/a-66668256 https://www.dw.com/en/eu-gas-russia-nord-stream-crisis/a-666... (it shows the timeline, the explosions were inconsequential, gas had already long stopped flowing) September 2022: "Russia cuts off gas exports to Europe via Nord Stream indefinitely"-- https://edition.cnn.com/2022/09/02/energy/nord-stream-1-pipeline-turned-off https://edition.cnn.com/2022/09/02/energy/nord-stream-1-pipe... August 2022: "Nord Stream 1: Russia switches off gas pipeline citing maintenance" -- https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/aug/31/nord-stream-1-russia-switches-off-gas-pipeline-citing-maintenance https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/aug/31/nord-stream...

Scarblac 1y ago

And we replaced it with imports from the US. And most oil is from the Middle East, of course. Being completely energy independent is easier said than done.

danaris 1y ago
But it's much, much easier with renewable energy. We may have to mine coal, oil, and natural gas in specific places, but everywhere has access to the sun and wind.