3 ms·

European digital sovereignty in email depends on having a decent FOSS email client, but the best we have is Thunderbird. I hope TB can make up for all those yea

by nanna 1y ago

European digital sovereignty in email depends on having a decent FOSS email client, but the best we have is Thunderbird. I hope TB can make up for all those years of lost time and catch up with Outlook. From their emails it seems like the focus is to compete with Exchange and to build smartphone clients. Personally I just really hope they find time to deal with the absolutely shoddy search.

sabellito 1y ago
I never used an email client in my life, I don't personally know anyone who does it either. I wonder what's the distribution between people who use clients vs just web.
- guappa 1y ago
  You also need a good open source web client then…
- lynx97 1y ago
  I never used a web based email client in my life, I don't personally know many people who still do so either.
hyperman1 1y ago
Not saying that Thunderbird is great, but ms Outlook has serious problems finding mails even for very specific keywords if it is older than a few months. They seem to hyper index recent mails and forget all else. Ironically, I have set up thunderbird as a client for my exchange email just for archival, and it does much better finding them.
raverbashing 1y ago
Honestly why? Why does "digital sovereignty" have to rely on stuff like "FOSS email client" Honestly, as much of FOSS has its importance, focusing exclusively on open source solutions is probably part of why things don't go ahead Honestly Thunderbird was good 20 years ago. And even then... Makeshift solutions with pieces duck-taped together and inconsistent UX are not going to win any friends
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- danaris 1y ago
  FOSS != "makeshift solutions with pieces duck-taped together and inconsistent UX". Many highly polished, widely-used pieces of software are also FOSS. Firefox, for instance. FOSS can also be a software suite built by a well-funded international partnership for the specific purpose of making something that can replace Europe's current dependence on proprietary US-based software. Yes, it's important to try to make sure Europe is in good shape with the software (and hardware) it depends on now, but a solid long-term strategy can—and, IMO, should—include building new packages from the ground up to fill niches not currently well-served by the independent, distributed FOSS community. It's likely to take years to truly come to fruition, but if done thoughtfully it will benefit everyone.
  - raverbashing 1y ago
    > Many highly polished, widely-used pieces of software are also FOSS. Firefox, for instance. > FOSS != "makeshift solutions with pieces duck-taped together and inconsistent UX". Sure. Firefox is good. The fact that it's FOSS is of second nature But let's not kid ourselves, the majority of "User facing" FOSS apps has terrible UX. And then it always goes back to "it sucks but it's free" We should go for FOSS choices that are good, free/open shouldn't matter (if they are from European vendors) > include building new packages from the ground up to fill niches not currently well-served by the independent, distributed FOSS community Sure, who should do that? Pretty much all linux vendors went out of business, and managing those solutions is easier said than done, also it looks much cheaper than it actually is.
    - danaris 1y ago
      You're missing the point. The reason Europe should use FOSS software is that it cannot, inherently, be beholden to any company or country. It can't be bought, or subverted without that subversion showing up in publicly-viewable code repositories. These are attributes that inherently go with the fact that it is built in the open, with anyone able to take the source and make their own version of it even if the people who originally built it want to start doing nefarious things. And there's nothing about this that makes software hard to use; that's a consequence of the volunteer, distributed nature of most independent open-source software, combined with the lack of strong incentives to create good UX. So if Europe wants to get serious about this, it can, and should, make some that's high quality and still open. There are a number of ways it could do that, and the amount of money it should cost to make it happen should be pocket change by the standards of the entire EU working together. There are plenty of good programmers and UX engineers in Europe.
ciberado 1y ago
I'm experimenting with both Thunderbird and MailSpring. The latter looks like a much more natural fit for someone used to GMail/OWA like me. [1] https://www.getmailspring.com/ https://www.getmailspring.com/

by nanna 1y ago

sabellito 1y ago

I never used an email client in my life, I don't personally know anyone who does it either. I wonder what's the distribution between people who use clients vs just web.

guappa 1y ago
You also need a good open source web client then…
lynx97 1y ago
I never used a web based email client in my life, I don't personally know many people who still do so either.

hyperman1 1y ago

Not saying that Thunderbird is great, but ms Outlook has serious problems finding mails even for very specific keywords if it is older than a few months. They seem to hyper index recent mails and forget all else. Ironically, I have set up thunderbird as a client for my exchange email just for archival, and it does much better finding them.

raverbashing 1y ago

Honestly why? Why does "digital sovereignty" have to rely on stuff like "FOSS email client" Honestly, as much of FOSS has its importance, focusing exclusively on open source solutions is probably part of why things don't go ahead Honestly Thunderbird was good 20 years ago. And even then... Makeshift solutions with pieces duck-taped together and inconsistent UX are not going to win any friends

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
danaris 1y ago
FOSS != "makeshift solutions with pieces duck-taped together and inconsistent UX". Many highly polished, widely-used pieces of software are also FOSS. Firefox, for instance. FOSS can also be a software suite built by a well-funded international partnership for the specific purpose of making something that can replace Europe's current dependence on proprietary US-based software. Yes, it's important to try to make sure Europe is in good shape with the software (and hardware) it depends on now, but a solid long-term strategy can—and, IMO, should—include building new packages from the ground up to fill niches not currently well-served by the independent, distributed FOSS community. It's likely to take years to truly come to fruition, but if done thoughtfully it will benefit everyone.
- raverbashing 1y ago
  > Many highly polished, widely-used pieces of software are also FOSS. Firefox, for instance. > FOSS != "makeshift solutions with pieces duck-taped together and inconsistent UX". Sure. Firefox is good. The fact that it's FOSS is of second nature But let's not kid ourselves, the majority of "User facing" FOSS apps has terrible UX. And then it always goes back to "it sucks but it's free" We should go for FOSS choices that are good, free/open shouldn't matter (if they are from European vendors) > include building new packages from the ground up to fill niches not currently well-served by the independent, distributed FOSS community Sure, who should do that? Pretty much all linux vendors went out of business, and managing those solutions is easier said than done, also it looks much cheaper than it actually is.
  - danaris 1y ago
    You're missing the point. The reason Europe should use FOSS software is that it cannot, inherently, be beholden to any company or country. It can't be bought, or subverted without that subversion showing up in publicly-viewable code repositories. These are attributes that inherently go with the fact that it is built in the open, with anyone able to take the source and make their own version of it even if the people who originally built it want to start doing nefarious things. And there's nothing about this that makes software hard to use; that's a consequence of the volunteer, distributed nature of most independent open-source software, combined with the lack of strong incentives to create good UX. So if Europe wants to get serious about this, it can, and should, make some that's high quality and still open. There are a number of ways it could do that, and the amount of money it should cost to make it happen should be pocket change by the standards of the entire EU working together. There are plenty of good programmers and UX engineers in Europe.

ciberado 1y ago

I'm experimenting with both Thunderbird and MailSpring. The latter looks like a much more natural fit for someone used to GMail/OWA like me. [1] https://www.getmailspring.com/ https://www.getmailspring.com/