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And they're still nearly evenly matched and Trump is still doing what he's doing. The Democrats could have done all the same stuff Trump is doing, but for goo

And they're still nearly evenly matched and Trump is still doing what he's doing. The Democrats could have done all the same stuff Trump is doing, but for good instead of evil. The problem is that the Democrats are not willing to accept that the system is entirely broken, so they keep clinging to a belief in "institutions" that they think will somehow magically protect us, when in fact those institutions are destroying us.

watwut 1y ago
You can not destroy democracy and rule of law for the good. By definition, you are destroying democracy and rule of law. Even if you believe yourself to be good, and Trump and MAGA are under that illusion, you are doing something horrible. Democrats could not do it. If they had done it, they would be as bad as Trump is now.
- BrenBarn 1y ago
  The point is that what we have now (and what we had before Trump) is not democracy and is not the rule of law, and Trump's actions show that, because those actions are taken within that system. We have been living for a long time under the illusion that our governmental system was democratic when it never was, it was only due to coincidence and luck that it appeared that way. When I say "do the same stuff Trump is doing" I mean use similar methods to create a system that actually supports democracy and the rule of law.
  - staunton 1y ago
    Havimg "democracy and rule of law" isn't a question of yes or no, it's a matter of degrees on several only partially aligned axes. Something like that can slowly shift. You make it sound like "our democracy was never perfect, so obviously we always just had a mad emperor all along"...
    - BrenBarn 1y ago
      Sure, it's a matter of degree, but I think recent events have shown that the actual guardrails we have are significantly less than what we thought we had. It's like, if you built a bridge to carry 10,000 tons because you need it to carry 10,000 tons, and then it turns out it's starting to fall apart under 5,000 tons, it doesn't make sense to me to say that you should just fix it so it securely holds 5,000 tons, or if it breaks just restore it to hold 5,000 tons. You need to rebuild it so it can do what you need it to do.
      - staunton 1y ago
        If it can be fixed, any civil engineer would clearly prefer to fix it rather than tearing it down and rebuilding it. This is still not a noce analogy because tearing down a bridge is just expensive (and maybe unnecessary). Tearing down a political system isn't something you can "just do". Most people don't seem to want that and as long as that's the case it won't happen. US citizens still enjoy vastly more rights, protection and political participation than most people in most countries. If you tear the system down, quite likely what you get will be even worse. Gradual change can be for the worse but also for the better, there's ample historical precedent for both. There's still a lot of ways this could go.
        johnnyanmac 1y ago
        >Most people don't seem to want that and as long as that's the case it won't happen. Most people, as usual, are apathetic and don't care as long as it doesn't affect them. For those that do: it seems that that's exactly what they want to do. Hence 2016 pushing a supposed anti-establishment Trump (an obvious mistake, but no one ver said the people made well informed decisions). It's a shame the DNC spent the last 3 elections rejecting such a sentiment.
        BrenBarn 1y ago
        I think there's a lot of ways things could be fixed without necessarily "tearing everything down". More like shifting in a new foundation while leaving a lot of the superstructure intact. Like we could still have a lot of the same basic governmental functions and operations even if the constitution were entirely rewritten. The irony is that Trump is doing the exact opposite, tearing down those "surface-level" operations without doing anything to improve the foundations ---and in fact causing major cracks in those foundations, thus making it even more necessary to replace them.
- malcolmgreaves 1y ago
  Then what was the American revolution?
  - ModernMech 1y ago
    It was a fight against tyranny. It destroyed the rule of a king, thereby ushering in democracy and the rule of law.
  - mrguyorama 1y ago
    A bunch of rich, white, influential businessmen getting a better tax deal. America hasn't actually come that far.
ReptileMan 1y ago
>but for good instead of evil A lot of people have decided that what Trump is doing is good. A lot have decided that it is evil. It is not so clear cut.
johnnyanmac 1y ago
To be precise, Biden had around 5 months of presidential immunity. He could have done a lot as a lame duck, but this was not the case when he came in. And I think it's even simpler than that. the only bipartisan point is that both sides are bought out by corporate interests. Many reps are not looking out for their constituents.
- mensetmanusman 1y ago
  To be fair, we now know that Biden wasn’t sure what was going on.
tekknik 1y ago
[flagged]

watwut 1y ago

You can not destroy democracy and rule of law for the good. By definition, you are destroying democracy and rule of law. Even if you believe yourself to be good, and Trump and MAGA are under that illusion, you are doing something horrible. Democrats could not do it. If they had done it, they would be as bad as Trump is now.

BrenBarn 1y ago
The point is that what we have now (and what we had before Trump) is not democracy and is not the rule of law, and Trump's actions show that, because those actions are taken within that system. We have been living for a long time under the illusion that our governmental system was democratic when it never was, it was only due to coincidence and luck that it appeared that way. When I say "do the same stuff Trump is doing" I mean use similar methods to create a system that actually supports democracy and the rule of law.
- staunton 1y ago
  Havimg "democracy and rule of law" isn't a question of yes or no, it's a matter of degrees on several only partially aligned axes. Something like that can slowly shift. You make it sound like "our democracy was never perfect, so obviously we always just had a mad emperor all along"...
  - BrenBarn 1y ago
    Sure, it's a matter of degree, but I think recent events have shown that the actual guardrails we have are significantly less than what we thought we had. It's like, if you built a bridge to carry 10,000 tons because you need it to carry 10,000 tons, and then it turns out it's starting to fall apart under 5,000 tons, it doesn't make sense to me to say that you should just fix it so it securely holds 5,000 tons, or if it breaks just restore it to hold 5,000 tons. You need to rebuild it so it can do what you need it to do.
    - staunton 1y ago
      If it can be fixed, any civil engineer would clearly prefer to fix it rather than tearing it down and rebuilding it. This is still not a noce analogy because tearing down a bridge is just expensive (and maybe unnecessary). Tearing down a political system isn't something you can "just do". Most people don't seem to want that and as long as that's the case it won't happen. US citizens still enjoy vastly more rights, protection and political participation than most people in most countries. If you tear the system down, quite likely what you get will be even worse. Gradual change can be for the worse but also for the better, there's ample historical precedent for both. There's still a lot of ways this could go.
      - johnnyanmac 1y ago
        >Most people don't seem to want that and as long as that's the case it won't happen. Most people, as usual, are apathetic and don't care as long as it doesn't affect them. For those that do: it seems that that's exactly what they want to do. Hence 2016 pushing a supposed anti-establishment Trump (an obvious mistake, but no one ver said the people made well informed decisions). It's a shame the DNC spent the last 3 elections rejecting such a sentiment.
      - BrenBarn 1y ago
        I think there's a lot of ways things could be fixed without necessarily "tearing everything down". More like shifting in a new foundation while leaving a lot of the superstructure intact. Like we could still have a lot of the same basic governmental functions and operations even if the constitution were entirely rewritten. The irony is that Trump is doing the exact opposite, tearing down those "surface-level" operations without doing anything to improve the foundations ---and in fact causing major cracks in those foundations, thus making it even more necessary to replace them.
malcolmgreaves 1y ago
Then what was the American revolution?
- ModernMech 1y ago
  It was a fight against tyranny. It destroyed the rule of a king, thereby ushering in democracy and the rule of law.
- mrguyorama 1y ago
  A bunch of rich, white, influential businessmen getting a better tax deal. America hasn't actually come that far.

ReptileMan 1y ago

>but for good instead of evil A lot of people have decided that what Trump is doing is good. A lot have decided that it is evil. It is not so clear cut.

johnnyanmac 1y ago

To be precise, Biden had around 5 months of presidential immunity. He could have done a lot as a lame duck, but this was not the case when he came in. And I think it's even simpler than that. the only bipartisan point is that both sides are bought out by corporate interests. Many reps are not looking out for their constituents.

mensetmanusman 1y ago
To be fair, we now know that Biden wasn’t sure what was going on.

tekknik 1y ago

[flagged]