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> Italians care enough to complain about their demographic collapse, but not enough to make policy changes. How would giving paperwork to non-Italians help the

> Italians care enough to complain about their demographic collapse, but not enough to make policy changes. How would giving paperwork to non-Italians help the demographics of Italians?

toomuchtodo 1y ago
Young people don’t have children where there are no services and workers providing those services. Certainly, jobs with living wages are also an important component. From my last link above: > More than a third of Italy’s teenagers dream of emigrating as soon as they are old enough to do so, with the most favoured destination being the US (32 per cent), followed by Spain (12 per cent) and the UK (11 per cent), according to Istat. > In March last year, the institute reported that in 2023, the number of births in Italy fell to 379,000 – a record low. (there were 370k births in 2024, and we should except another 9k-10k decline in 2025 arriving at ~360k births this year)
- like_any_other 1y ago
  > Young people don’t have children where there are no services and workers providing those services. Let's test that theory: which countries have reversed their native population decline with immigration?
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  - toomuchtodo 1y ago
    No country will ever convince native populations to have more children solely because of immigration [1] (Utah and Israel do it with religious fundamentalism, which has...fallen out of favor, broadly speaking); immigration improves the economy, which creates economic potential for native born to potentially consider having children. You're never going to convince most rational people to have kids in a poor economic macro (Russia, South Korea, Italy, Greece to varying degress), so you must stoke the economy to ensure it is sufficiently healthy to encourage those still considering having kids to have them. Immigration most recently was creating a robust US economy, for example [2]. Of course, a robust economy is no guarantee you're going to convince native born citizens to take on the burden of childrearing. Raising children is incredibly high cost to parents and the rewards are mixed at best. Your comment here [3] leads me to believe that rational arguments are going to fall on deaf ears though, from the anti immigrant pro native born vibes. Correct me if I'm mistaken on that though if I'm misreading the comment. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44229099 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44229099 [2] https://www.axios.com/2024/03/13/immigration-economy-jobs-growth-good https://www.axios.com/2024/03/13/immigration-economy-jobs-gr... [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44230345 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44230345
    - like_any_other 1y ago
      I asked for examples of countries that fixed native birth-rates with immigration, not for theorizing how it could help. > You're never going to convince most rational people to have kids in a poor economic macro (Russia, South Korea, Italy, Greece to varying degress) Nigeria, Pakistan, Somalia? Glancing at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_fertility_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_fer..., I'm not seeing this economy <--> fertility correlation you claim exists.
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      - toomuchtodo 1y ago
        The fertility fallacy: Five things you didn’t know about global fertility rates - https://www.unfpa.org/news/fertility-fallacy-five-things-you-didn%E2%80%99t-know-about-global-fertility-rates https://www.unfpa.org/news/fertility-fallacy-five-things-you... - June 10th, 2025 World fertility rates in 'unprecedented decline', UN says - https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/clynq459wxgo https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/clynq459wxgo - June 9th, 2025 > In all countries, 39% of people said financial limitations prevented them from having a child. The highest response was in Korea (58%), the lowest in Sweden (19%). > In total, only 12% of people cited infertility - or difficulty conceiving - as a reason for not having the number of children they wanted to. But that figure was higher in countries including Thailand (19%), the US (16%), South Africa (15%), Nigeria (14%) and India (13%).
        toomuchtodo 1y ago
        Global Fertility Crisis Can't Be Solved With Financial Perks, UN Report Says - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-06-11/un-report-says-financial-perks-can-t-help-solve-fertility-crisis https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-06-11/un-report... | https://archive.today/667Qp https://archive.today/667Qp - June 11th, 2025 > The UNFPA partnered with YouGov and surveyed more than 14,000 men and women across 14 countries. Of the 10,000 respondents who said they wanted children, nearly 40% said financial limitations were keeping them from having their ideal family size. > The survey found that millions of people are unable to have as many children as they wish because of financial constraints, gender inequality and uncertainty about the future. > “This crisis is not rooted in individual reproductive decisions that fail to align with the needs of a state or economy,” the report said. Instead, it’s due to systems that “failed to create the economic security and personal empowerment that people say are preconditions for realizing their family formation goals.”
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> Italians care enough to complain about their demographic collapse, but not enough to make policy changes. How would giving paperwork to non-Italians help the demographics of Italians?

toomuchtodo 1y ago

Young people don’t have children where there are no services and workers providing those services. Certainly, jobs with living wages are also an important component. From my last link above: > More than a third of Italy’s teenagers dream of emigrating as soon as they are old enough to do so, with the most favoured destination being the US (32 per cent), followed by Spain (12 per cent) and the UK (11 per cent), according to Istat. > In March last year, the institute reported that in 2023, the number of births in Italy fell to 379,000 – a record low. (there were 370k births in 2024, and we should except another 9k-10k decline in 2025 arriving at ~360k births this year)

like_any_other 1y ago
> Young people don’t have children where there are no services and workers providing those services. Let's test that theory: which countries have reversed their native population decline with immigration?
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- toomuchtodo 1y ago
  No country will ever convince native populations to have more children solely because of immigration [1] (Utah and Israel do it with religious fundamentalism, which has...fallen out of favor, broadly speaking); immigration improves the economy, which creates economic potential for native born to potentially consider having children. You're never going to convince most rational people to have kids in a poor economic macro (Russia, South Korea, Italy, Greece to varying degress), so you must stoke the economy to ensure it is sufficiently healthy to encourage those still considering having kids to have them. Immigration most recently was creating a robust US economy, for example [2]. Of course, a robust economy is no guarantee you're going to convince native born citizens to take on the burden of childrearing. Raising children is incredibly high cost to parents and the rewards are mixed at best. Your comment here [3] leads me to believe that rational arguments are going to fall on deaf ears though, from the anti immigrant pro native born vibes. Correct me if I'm mistaken on that though if I'm misreading the comment. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44229099 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44229099 [2] https://www.axios.com/2024/03/13/immigration-economy-jobs-growth-good https://www.axios.com/2024/03/13/immigration-economy-jobs-gr... [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44230345 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44230345
  - like_any_other 1y ago
    I asked for examples of countries that fixed native birth-rates with immigration, not for theorizing how it could help. > You're never going to convince most rational people to have kids in a poor economic macro (Russia, South Korea, Italy, Greece to varying degress) Nigeria, Pakistan, Somalia? Glancing at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_fertility_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_fer..., I'm not seeing this economy <--> fertility correlation you claim exists.
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    - toomuchtodo 1y ago
      The fertility fallacy: Five things you didn’t know about global fertility rates - https://www.unfpa.org/news/fertility-fallacy-five-things-you-didn%E2%80%99t-know-about-global-fertility-rates https://www.unfpa.org/news/fertility-fallacy-five-things-you... - June 10th, 2025 World fertility rates in 'unprecedented decline', UN says - https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/clynq459wxgo https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/clynq459wxgo - June 9th, 2025 > In all countries, 39% of people said financial limitations prevented them from having a child. The highest response was in Korea (58%), the lowest in Sweden (19%). > In total, only 12% of people cited infertility - or difficulty conceiving - as a reason for not having the number of children they wanted to. But that figure was higher in countries including Thailand (19%), the US (16%), South Africa (15%), Nigeria (14%) and India (13%).
      - toomuchtodo 1y ago
        Global Fertility Crisis Can't Be Solved With Financial Perks, UN Report Says - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-06-11/un-report-says-financial-perks-can-t-help-solve-fertility-crisis https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-06-11/un-report... | https://archive.today/667Qp https://archive.today/667Qp - June 11th, 2025 > The UNFPA partnered with YouGov and surveyed more than 14,000 men and women across 14 countries. Of the 10,000 respondents who said they wanted children, nearly 40% said financial limitations were keeping them from having their ideal family size. > The survey found that millions of people are unable to have as many children as they wish because of financial constraints, gender inequality and uncertainty about the future. > “This crisis is not rooted in individual reproductive decisions that fail to align with the needs of a state or economy,” the report said. Instead, it’s due to systems that “failed to create the economic security and personal empowerment that people say are preconditions for realizing their family formation goals.”
deleted 1y ago
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