7 ms·

I'm really showing off my age here, but it has been all down hill since skeuomorphic design; because the focus was primarily on usability and teachability as fi

I'm really showing off my age here, but it has been all down hill since skeuomorphic design; because the focus was primarily on usability and teachability as first-class concepts. Heck, companies were spending millions on usability research at the time, much of which was used. I taught people to use computers in the 90s and early 2000s, and having those concepts matching to real world objects helped immensely. Recently I had to teach my kids to use a PC (they no longer teach that in "computers" at school, by the way, iPads only), and everything was arbitrarily designed without even internal rules/consistency let alone building on real-world metaphors. You've also had this ongoing trend of content density getting consistency worse, and now Apple is accelerating a trend to make UI elements difficult to see/harm discoverability further. Liquid Glass is going to be a painful period, and all the clones that do it even worse are going to be pure hell.

whiteboardr 1y ago
Attack of the clones, yes. Just as visual design across the majority of digital touchpoints seems to have arrived at a mature level, this will unleash a giant wave of noise including gradients on text. Brrr.
mrweasel 1y ago
> having those concepts matching to real world objects helped immensely A lot of those real world objects no longer exists, or are less frequently used than their counterparts, so I sort of see why moving away from that design language makes sense. I'll hold of judgement of "Liquid Glass" until I've seen and used, but I don't feel like it's necessary. It's certainly not "the biggest" design update ever. System 9 to MacOSX was still greater. This isn't really Apples fault, but I also expect others to start implementing something similar, but badly. Apple do have a point that this is something that only Apple can do well, because you do need to ensure that hardware can keep up. We're going to see other attempt something similar, but it won't been nearly as polished. Overall I still feel that Apple is trying to force to much functionality into the phone platform. It would be really lovely to have an iOS light, that does less and with a simpler UI/UX.
- wavemode 1y ago
  > A lot of those real world objects no longer exists, or are less frequently used than their counterparts, so I sort of see why moving away from that design language makes sense This reasoning never made a ton of sense to me. Gen Z don't use devices with knobs and buttons anymore, therefore we should all design our interface elements to look like nothing in particular? If you give someone young and tech savvy a digital UI, they will figure out how to use it. It's precisely the oldest and least tech savvy users for whom interface design is most important, as they are more like to get frustrated and quit your app. Why optimize for the young, then? (I mean, it's a rhetorical question, as I already know the answer - the designers creating the interfaces are themselves young and tech savvy gen-Z'ers.)
  - mrweasel 1y ago
    > Gen Z don't use devices with knobs and buttons anymore, therefore we should all design our interface elements to look like nothing in particular? We have volume sliders rather than knobs, because that's easier on a touch interface. I get your point, but does the button need to look like the button on the radio in our grandfathers car from 1960? Probably not. I was thinking more in terms of filling cabinets, floppies as save icons or even the phone as the receiver on a rotary phone. Would it be easier to set a timer on your phone if the UI looked like a kitchen egg timer? Having the email icon be a letter doesn't even make sense anymore. My kid has sent one letter ever and all the mailboxes will be removed next year. How does having a letter as an icon going to provide any meaningful frame of reference when we daily receive more email than we do actual letters in a year, or two, or three?
    - wavemode 1y ago
      I understand the concept that objects like letters are no longer used very much. My question is, what icon do you use instead of a letter icon, and what tangible benefit does it bring, given that people are already used to letter icons, and aren't going to be used to your new icon. Tangible benefit meaning "users will be able to use this interface more easily". Usually the reasoning just stops at "but nobody sends letters anymore!" without going a step further and justifying why that even matters.
zilti 1y ago
> (they no longer teach that in "computers" at school, by the way, iPads only) I swear, some decisionmakers deserve a brutal punch in their face. I don't even care anymore about being civil in such matters.
acheron 1y ago
> Recently I had to teach my kids to use a PC (they no longer teach that in "computers" at school, by the way, iPads only) The middle school here has a "computer applications" class that covers all that kind of thing. Definitely not iPads only.
pndy 1y ago
This whole flat style fever which doesn't distinguish between active elements and informative text allowed to spread darkpattern tactics which lead to deploying adverse or even harmful changes for users. It also contributed to nullifying customisation under linux - looking exactly at you adwaita. My age shows here as well and I'm not in any way excited about this design change at all. Suddenly Apple decided that this fancy acrylic glass animation for widgets, interface that says "look we aren't stagnant - we did something" will be enough to diverge attention from other problems. I sincerely doubt that it's gonna be. This release feels like a return to transparency trend which we had somewhere around Vista and initial KDE Plasma releases.
- data-ottawa 1y ago
  I was initially excited as on paper it sounds like a fantastic throwback to the Aqua design, which I still think was fantastic. From the preview so far I'm not excited. I have to say app icons look nice (the borders make them pop just a bit more), the border highlights are clear without being loud, and elements like the dock look nice. The inactive button states actually look great – as shown in the Camera and Facetime screenshots – they actually do look like little glass buttons, which is good. Where I have issue is when multiple of these glass elemenst are shown at once they fight for attention and it's persnally quite overwhelming for me. The image of the video player controls on iPhone and AppleTV are in my opinion awful and load, and that's especially where you want a quiet UI. When the shape has a strong refractive index and that's where it becomes really noisy for me with the Safari and music tab bars being absolutely awful in my opinion. It's a shame because I think if they kept the idea but dialed it down from 11 it could be fantastic.
  - pndy 1y ago
    Someone installed beta and posted a screenshot down below somewhere; control center with these glass buttons over a colorful springboard icons grid turns interface into a visual mess. I wonder if they manage to change anything or tweaks, polishing (sic!) will happen over next or two iOS releases.
- andrekandre 1y ago
jandrese 1y ago
IMHO skeuomorphic design had a few wins, but also plenty of losses. Sometimes the real world interface is just not as intuitive as it should have been. But I'm 100% behind you on "make buttons look like buttons" and "don't hide functionality behind arbitrary gestures that you never tell the user". UI designers may hate menus these days, but they were so good for letting a user browse through looking for the thing they want. Search boxes are a good speed improvement, but should never be the only interface object because many times the user doesn't know exactly what they're looking for. This is also why most voice assistants don't get used very much, there's no easily accessible list of phrases they know and they aren't smart enough to really understand what the person wants, so people end up using the one or two phrases they know the assistant can handle and forget about it otherwise.
- ben_w 1y ago
  > This is also why most voice assistants don't get used very much, there's no easily accessible list of phrases they know and they aren't smart enough to really understand what the person wants, so people end up using the one or two phrases they know the assistant can handle and forget about it otherwise. Thank you for saying this, you've just made me realise they share all the problems of text adventures while having none of the excitement.
  - gmueckl 1y ago
    I was actually complaining about this the other day: there is no manual (or even a searchable database) of recognized commands/features. I often discover that something was possible with Google Assistant when the announcement comes that it's being removed.
    - sixothree 1y ago
      When you start a timer with Siri, it often announces that you can also tell it to stop the timer by saying stop. This tells me that even the most rudimentary functions of starting and stopping timers is not yet learned by users. Every time I hear that message I think of how much of a failure this whole thing has been.
ofcrpls 1y ago
I believe that new to computing populations in developing countries who were also new to literacy benefited a lot because of the shift away from skeuomorphic design paradigms because those real world object choices didn't always translate.
kstrauser 1y ago
> it has been all down hill since skeuomorphic design I strongly disagree. I don't mind if people like skeuomorphic graphics. Want to make the "play" button look like a 1987 tape deck? Not my thing, but everyone has different preferences. That's fine. But I loathe, detest, hate, despise, skeuomorphic user interfaces. Remember when Calendar.app would only let you turn one month page at a time because that's how desk calendars work? How Podcasts looked like a reel-to-reel recorder and waste tons of screen space? Contacts app imitating the limitations of a physical black book because that's how real books work?[0] If you like brushed metal or whatever, right on. Again, not my thing, but you do you! But I cannot abide the fake limitations that skeuomorphic design pushed onto software in the name of making apps work just like their physical equivalents. The UI on the magic boxes we're typing this on are limited only by our creativity. Please, please don't infect them with the real world's restrictions when it's not necessary! [0] https://www.betalogue.com/2012/01/15/abook6-dumb/ https://www.betalogue.com/2012/01/15/abook6-dumb/
- artursapek 1y ago
  Agreed. Use the medium’s capabilities! Don’t cripple it for the sake of familiarity.
tengbretson 1y ago
> and all the clones that do it even worse are going to be pure hell. This is my #1 take-away from this. At this point it seems pretty safe to assume that interfaces made by Apple will probably still be decent, in spite of this design philosophy. The clones, however, are going going to take accessiblity to new lows.
90s_dev 1y ago
I think you have a romanticized revisionary memory of back then. I went to school in the 90s and learned computers in school. All they taught us was the basics. How to use Windows explorer. What files are and how to rename and delete and undelete them. And some hypercard clone. Which barely taught us anything about computers except "they can do stuff you tell them to," which I guess was a valuable lesson?
- radlad 1y ago
  I've been hearing that kids do not understand files and hierarchal file systems due to cloud and iOS.
wodenokoto 1y ago
> I taught people to use computers in the 90s and early 2000s, and having those concepts matching to real world objects helped immensely. As I child of the nineties I was surprised to eventually learn that a file in a folder was a real thing and not only a computer concept.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

whiteboardr 1y ago

Attack of the clones, yes. Just as visual design across the majority of digital touchpoints seems to have arrived at a mature level, this will unleash a giant wave of noise including gradients on text. Brrr.

mrweasel 1y ago

> having those concepts matching to real world objects helped immensely A lot of those real world objects no longer exists, or are less frequently used than their counterparts, so I sort of see why moving away from that design language makes sense. I'll hold of judgement of "Liquid Glass" until I've seen and used, but I don't feel like it's necessary. It's certainly not "the biggest" design update ever. System 9 to MacOSX was still greater. This isn't really Apples fault, but I also expect others to start implementing something similar, but badly. Apple do have a point that this is something that only Apple can do well, because you do need to ensure that hardware can keep up. We're going to see other attempt something similar, but it won't been nearly as polished. Overall I still feel that Apple is trying to force to much functionality into the phone platform. It would be really lovely to have an iOS light, that does less and with a simpler UI/UX.

wavemode 1y ago
> A lot of those real world objects no longer exists, or are less frequently used than their counterparts, so I sort of see why moving away from that design language makes sense This reasoning never made a ton of sense to me. Gen Z don't use devices with knobs and buttons anymore, therefore we should all design our interface elements to look like nothing in particular? If you give someone young and tech savvy a digital UI, they will figure out how to use it. It's precisely the oldest and least tech savvy users for whom interface design is most important, as they are more like to get frustrated and quit your app. Why optimize for the young, then? (I mean, it's a rhetorical question, as I already know the answer - the designers creating the interfaces are themselves young and tech savvy gen-Z'ers.)
- mrweasel 1y ago
  > Gen Z don't use devices with knobs and buttons anymore, therefore we should all design our interface elements to look like nothing in particular? We have volume sliders rather than knobs, because that's easier on a touch interface. I get your point, but does the button need to look like the button on the radio in our grandfathers car from 1960? Probably not. I was thinking more in terms of filling cabinets, floppies as save icons or even the phone as the receiver on a rotary phone. Would it be easier to set a timer on your phone if the UI looked like a kitchen egg timer? Having the email icon be a letter doesn't even make sense anymore. My kid has sent one letter ever and all the mailboxes will be removed next year. How does having a letter as an icon going to provide any meaningful frame of reference when we daily receive more email than we do actual letters in a year, or two, or three?
  - wavemode 1y ago
    I understand the concept that objects like letters are no longer used very much. My question is, what icon do you use instead of a letter icon, and what tangible benefit does it bring, given that people are already used to letter icons, and aren't going to be used to your new icon. Tangible benefit meaning "users will be able to use this interface more easily". Usually the reasoning just stops at "but nobody sends letters anymore!" without going a step further and justifying why that even matters.

zilti 1y ago

> (they no longer teach that in "computers" at school, by the way, iPads only) I swear, some decisionmakers deserve a brutal punch in their face. I don't even care anymore about being civil in such matters.

acheron 1y ago

> Recently I had to teach my kids to use a PC (they no longer teach that in "computers" at school, by the way, iPads only) The middle school here has a "computer applications" class that covers all that kind of thing. Definitely not iPads only.

pndy 1y ago

This whole flat style fever which doesn't distinguish between active elements and informative text allowed to spread darkpattern tactics which lead to deploying adverse or even harmful changes for users. It also contributed to nullifying customisation under linux - looking exactly at you adwaita. My age shows here as well and I'm not in any way excited about this design change at all. Suddenly Apple decided that this fancy acrylic glass animation for widgets, interface that says "look we aren't stagnant - we did something" will be enough to diverge attention from other problems. I sincerely doubt that it's gonna be. This release feels like a return to transparency trend which we had somewhere around Vista and initial KDE Plasma releases.

data-ottawa 1y ago
I was initially excited as on paper it sounds like a fantastic throwback to the Aqua design, which I still think was fantastic. From the preview so far I'm not excited. I have to say app icons look nice (the borders make them pop just a bit more), the border highlights are clear without being loud, and elements like the dock look nice. The inactive button states actually look great – as shown in the Camera and Facetime screenshots – they actually do look like little glass buttons, which is good. Where I have issue is when multiple of these glass elemenst are shown at once they fight for attention and it's persnally quite overwhelming for me. The image of the video player controls on iPhone and AppleTV are in my opinion awful and load, and that's especially where you want a quiet UI. When the shape has a strong refractive index and that's where it becomes really noisy for me with the Safari and music tab bars being absolutely awful in my opinion. It's a shame because I think if they kept the idea but dialed it down from 11 it could be fantastic.
- pndy 1y ago
  Someone installed beta and posted a screenshot down below somewhere; control center with these glass buttons over a colorful springboard icons grid turns interface into a visual mess. I wonder if they manage to change anything or tweaks, polishing (sic!) will happen over next or two iOS releases.
andrekandre 1y ago

jandrese 1y ago

IMHO skeuomorphic design had a few wins, but also plenty of losses. Sometimes the real world interface is just not as intuitive as it should have been. But I'm 100% behind you on "make buttons look like buttons" and "don't hide functionality behind arbitrary gestures that you never tell the user". UI designers may hate menus these days, but they were so good for letting a user browse through looking for the thing they want. Search boxes are a good speed improvement, but should never be the only interface object because many times the user doesn't know exactly what they're looking for. This is also why most voice assistants don't get used very much, there's no easily accessible list of phrases they know and they aren't smart enough to really understand what the person wants, so people end up using the one or two phrases they know the assistant can handle and forget about it otherwise.

ben_w 1y ago
> This is also why most voice assistants don't get used very much, there's no easily accessible list of phrases they know and they aren't smart enough to really understand what the person wants, so people end up using the one or two phrases they know the assistant can handle and forget about it otherwise. Thank you for saying this, you've just made me realise they share all the problems of text adventures while having none of the excitement.
- gmueckl 1y ago
  I was actually complaining about this the other day: there is no manual (or even a searchable database) of recognized commands/features. I often discover that something was possible with Google Assistant when the announcement comes that it's being removed.
  - sixothree 1y ago
    When you start a timer with Siri, it often announces that you can also tell it to stop the timer by saying stop. This tells me that even the most rudimentary functions of starting and stopping timers is not yet learned by users. Every time I hear that message I think of how much of a failure this whole thing has been.

ofcrpls 1y ago

I believe that new to computing populations in developing countries who were also new to literacy benefited a lot because of the shift away from skeuomorphic design paradigms because those real world object choices didn't always translate.

kstrauser 1y ago

> it has been all down hill since skeuomorphic design I strongly disagree. I don't mind if people like skeuomorphic graphics. Want to make the "play" button look like a 1987 tape deck? Not my thing, but everyone has different preferences. That's fine. But I loathe, detest, hate, despise, skeuomorphic user interfaces. Remember when Calendar.app would only let you turn one month page at a time because that's how desk calendars work? How Podcasts looked like a reel-to-reel recorder and waste tons of screen space? Contacts app imitating the limitations of a physical black book because that's how real books work?[0] If you like brushed metal or whatever, right on. Again, not my thing, but you do you! But I cannot abide the fake limitations that skeuomorphic design pushed onto software in the name of making apps work just like their physical equivalents. The UI on the magic boxes we're typing this on are limited only by our creativity. Please, please don't infect them with the real world's restrictions when it's not necessary! [0] https://www.betalogue.com/2012/01/15/abook6-dumb/ https://www.betalogue.com/2012/01/15/abook6-dumb/

artursapek 1y ago
Agreed. Use the medium’s capabilities! Don’t cripple it for the sake of familiarity.

tengbretson 1y ago

> and all the clones that do it even worse are going to be pure hell. This is my #1 take-away from this. At this point it seems pretty safe to assume that interfaces made by Apple will probably still be decent, in spite of this design philosophy. The clones, however, are going going to take accessiblity to new lows.

90s_dev 1y ago

I think you have a romanticized revisionary memory of back then. I went to school in the 90s and learned computers in school. All they taught us was the basics. How to use Windows explorer. What files are and how to rename and delete and undelete them. And some hypercard clone. Which barely taught us anything about computers except "they can do stuff you tell them to," which I guess was a valuable lesson?

radlad 1y ago
I've been hearing that kids do not understand files and hierarchal file systems due to cloud and iOS.

wodenokoto 1y ago

> I taught people to use computers in the 90s and early 2000s, and having those concepts matching to real world objects helped immensely. As I child of the nineties I was surprised to eventually learn that a file in a folder was a real thing and not only a computer concept.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]