3 ms·

Neat find, though it's funny to me that a phone number is something people (including everyone on this thread I bet) have been handing out like candy their enti

by paxys 1y ago

Neat find, though it's funny to me that a phone number is something people (including everyone on this thread I bet) have been handing out like candy their entire adult lives - to friends, stores, banks, employers, government agencies, random websites – but still expect it to remain some critical secret that no one should ever find out. A phone number is about as private as your name, and you should consider it as such.

deleted 1y ago
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beezlewax 1y ago
No it isn't. You give it to people you trust mostly you don't expect them to make it available publicly on the Internet.
- paxys 1y ago
  You really trust that not a single friend of yours has ever clicked the "share contacts" button after downloading Facebook/Instagram/Snapchat/LinkedIn/TikTok...? You trust that your auto dealer or bank has not shared your details with Experian (even though you signed a piece of paper explicitly authorizing that)? You trust that your mobile operator itself isn't sharing your contact data with advertisers (go back and read your carrier agreement)? You trust that your grocery store's membership system has fool-proof IT security? Look up "recent data breaches" on Google and see how many of those companies/hospitals/government agencies you had a relationship with. I can guarantee that despite your best efforts and "trust" your phone number is accessible in a few clicks to anyone who cares to look.
  - xp84 1y ago
    I feel like both sides are right here: 1. Google shouldn't make it trivial to find out my phone number from my email. Given that even Google itself, despite having better technology available, still allows the dumpster that is SMS verification to be used as an auth "factor," they should not be enabling SIM-swapping so directly. Just knowing someone's number makes it trivial to social engineer a SIM-swap, and that can likely unlock every account most people have, and a lot of important accounts (like banks) even for security-minded people, since banks love SMS and hate everything else. 2. I shouldn't act like my phone number is a well-protected secret, or trust that anyone who calls or texts me has gotten it from a trusted source.
psunavy03 1y ago
Uhh . . . this is not an earth-shattering take, considering they used to publish entire books with everyone's phone numbers and addresses in them, and you had to pay a fee not to have your number listed. Are we really to the point people don't understand the concept of a phone book anymore?
- jeroenhd 1y ago
  Back when phone books were a thing, you couldn't take over a phone number from the other side of the country in the middle of the night and use it to transfer funds to a foreign bank account before you even wake up. Social security numbers were also never supposed to be secret but as their use changed over the years, so did the way people treat them. Yes, phone numbers are leaked everywhere. So are social security numbers and home addresses. That doesn't mean your website should be leaking that information.
- bornfreddy 1y ago
  Things have changed in the last decades. With all the unsolicited calls (and especially scams) one would prefer to keep their phone number as private as possible. Doesn't mean that delivery can't get it, just that it shouldn't be on the net.
- sumtechguy 1y ago
  Do I give it out? Not so much. Do I expect it to be private? No. You can for a small fee on some websites get my number. Heck if you find a phone book from ~2000 where I use to live then you could just look it up in the phone book. Number portability saw to that. Considering the number of data breaches and past history of phone numbers. To expect any sort of privacy is 'nice to have' but not going to happen. At this point it is basically security thru obscurity to expect it to be private. Even when they had 'unlisted' numbers you could buy a book from the phone company that had it in there anyway. They even had reverse phone books you could buy. I even remember CD's from ~1998 that had the whole country. You didn't even need to keep the books.
prophesi 1y ago
This is why I use things like Firefox Relay's email/phone masking for sites and services I don't trust. Would be interested if people know of free alternatives, as the phone mask requires their premium plan, and that can be a no-go for friends and family.
- paxys 1y ago
  It helps somewhat, but unless you give a unique number to every single friend, business, bank, store, your real number will find its way into data breaches sooner or later. Heck AT&T and T-Mobile have themselves had large scale hacks in the last few years.
  - prophesi 1y ago
    I mean it's better than nothing :/ Firefox's mobile mask is only one number, but I haven't seen any better alternatives. I do think I get significantly less spam/scam calls and texts than everyone else I know. But even if you had a unique number per service, I don't think that'll stop them entirely. If you've ever had to get a new number, as you say, it's probably already leaked somewhere whether or not you share it anywhere.
kccqzy 1y ago
> A phone number is about as private as your name Your name should also be somewhat private. No need to use your real name on the internet. There was a furor over Google requiring real names on Google+; this kind of outcry needs to continue.

by paxys 1y ago

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

beezlewax 1y ago

No it isn't. You give it to people you trust mostly you don't expect them to make it available publicly on the Internet.

paxys 1y ago
You really trust that not a single friend of yours has ever clicked the "share contacts" button after downloading Facebook/Instagram/Snapchat/LinkedIn/TikTok...? You trust that your auto dealer or bank has not shared your details with Experian (even though you signed a piece of paper explicitly authorizing that)? You trust that your mobile operator itself isn't sharing your contact data with advertisers (go back and read your carrier agreement)? You trust that your grocery store's membership system has fool-proof IT security? Look up "recent data breaches" on Google and see how many of those companies/hospitals/government agencies you had a relationship with. I can guarantee that despite your best efforts and "trust" your phone number is accessible in a few clicks to anyone who cares to look.
- xp84 1y ago
  I feel like both sides are right here: 1. Google shouldn't make it trivial to find out my phone number from my email. Given that even Google itself, despite having better technology available, still allows the dumpster that is SMS verification to be used as an auth "factor," they should not be enabling SIM-swapping so directly. Just knowing someone's number makes it trivial to social engineer a SIM-swap, and that can likely unlock every account most people have, and a lot of important accounts (like banks) even for security-minded people, since banks love SMS and hate everything else. 2. I shouldn't act like my phone number is a well-protected secret, or trust that anyone who calls or texts me has gotten it from a trusted source.

psunavy03 1y ago

Uhh . . . this is not an earth-shattering take, considering they used to publish entire books with everyone's phone numbers and addresses in them, and you had to pay a fee not to have your number listed. Are we really to the point people don't understand the concept of a phone book anymore?

jeroenhd 1y ago
Back when phone books were a thing, you couldn't take over a phone number from the other side of the country in the middle of the night and use it to transfer funds to a foreign bank account before you even wake up. Social security numbers were also never supposed to be secret but as their use changed over the years, so did the way people treat them. Yes, phone numbers are leaked everywhere. So are social security numbers and home addresses. That doesn't mean your website should be leaking that information.
bornfreddy 1y ago
Things have changed in the last decades. With all the unsolicited calls (and especially scams) one would prefer to keep their phone number as private as possible. Doesn't mean that delivery can't get it, just that it shouldn't be on the net.
sumtechguy 1y ago
Do I give it out? Not so much. Do I expect it to be private? No. You can for a small fee on some websites get my number. Heck if you find a phone book from ~2000 where I use to live then you could just look it up in the phone book. Number portability saw to that. Considering the number of data breaches and past history of phone numbers. To expect any sort of privacy is 'nice to have' but not going to happen. At this point it is basically security thru obscurity to expect it to be private. Even when they had 'unlisted' numbers you could buy a book from the phone company that had it in there anyway. They even had reverse phone books you could buy. I even remember CD's from ~1998 that had the whole country. You didn't even need to keep the books.

prophesi 1y ago

This is why I use things like Firefox Relay's email/phone masking for sites and services I don't trust. Would be interested if people know of free alternatives, as the phone mask requires their premium plan, and that can be a no-go for friends and family.

paxys 1y ago
It helps somewhat, but unless you give a unique number to every single friend, business, bank, store, your real number will find its way into data breaches sooner or later. Heck AT&T and T-Mobile have themselves had large scale hacks in the last few years.
- prophesi 1y ago
  I mean it's better than nothing :/ Firefox's mobile mask is only one number, but I haven't seen any better alternatives. I do think I get significantly less spam/scam calls and texts than everyone else I know. But even if you had a unique number per service, I don't think that'll stop them entirely. If you've ever had to get a new number, as you say, it's probably already leaked somewhere whether or not you share it anywhere.

kccqzy 1y ago

> A phone number is about as private as your name Your name should also be somewhat private. No need to use your real name on the internet. There was a furor over Google requiring real names on Google+; this kind of outcry needs to continue.