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When Americans were “resisting authority” by not wearing masks and keeping their businesses opened despite lockdown orders did you feel the same pride in anti-a

When Americans were “resisting authority” by not wearing masks and keeping their businesses opened despite lockdown orders did you feel the same pride in anti-authority behavior then? One person’s freedom fighter is another person’s terrorist. Always has been and always will be that way. The winning side when there is one usually gets to write the history of who was what. Do you still feel pride in American anti-authoritarianism today or do you think the US may have turned out to be governed more like the UK, Canada, Australia, or New Zealand complete with trust in government run healthcare had it not succeeded in rebellion? Important to remember all of these things when you are being introspective of an issue like the protests ongoing in Los Angelas and elsewhere. Anyway it’s hard to resist authority when you can’t find parking for the local protest.

jeffbee 1y ago
Anybody get tear-gassed for not wearing a mask?
- alex43578 1y ago
  Equating not wearing a mask with assaulting federal agents, damaging federal property, or being part of an unlawful assembly doing the former is quite a stretch. Be realistic about why the groups in LA are getting tear-gassed or pepperball’d.
- roenxi 1y ago
  Yes. That is part of why the various COVID measures proved quite unpopular. In Australia for example we saw the standard crowd-control treatments [0] being used to break up protests of people who objected to the sudden spike in authoritarianism. There was also the internationally eyebrow-raising financial abuse that the Canadians were doling out that was a new low for anti-protest tactics and political repression. [0] https://www.skynews.com.au/australia-news/coronavirus/victoria-police-fire-rubber-bullets-as-part-of-new-tactics-to-disperse-crowds-protesting-in-melbourne/news-story/0c7743f78ac17ffc569a75aa1e6c9fcc?nk=f03ea4252b7a9615ba49b3cd1adeb884-1749475700 https://www.skynews.com.au/australia-news/coronavirus/victor...
  - like_any_other 1y ago
    You replied to "it doesn't count as anti-authoritarian if you don't get tear-gassed". I hope you are prepared for the follow up of "it doesn't count if it's not in the USA", and whatever form of special pleading to come after that.
    - SantalBlush 1y ago
      Comment one: "It bothers me a great deal as an American to see this anti-authoritarian thread of American identity...." Comment two: "When Americans were “resisting authority” by not wearing masks... did you feel the same pride in anti-authority behavior then?" Comment three: "Anybody get tear-gassed for not wearing a mask?" Comment four: "Yes.... In Australia"
      - like_any_other 1y ago
        What are you trying to say? That it's not anti-authoritarian if you don't get tear-gassed?
        SantalBlush 1y ago
        The discussion was explicitly about American anti-authoritarianism, so countering with evidence of perceived government overreach in Australia is a laughably bad approach--no special pleading is required. It's a complete shifting of the goalposts, suggesting the person is really grasping at straws to make some kind of point.
        like_any_other 1y ago
        That doesn't answer my question, which was about Americans. > grasping at straws So stay at home orders and gathering bans [1] aren't authoritarian? Note, I am not asking if they were justified, or necessary (or perceived as such, given the information known at the time), but if they were authoritarian. If someone argues a point poorly, that doesn't make the point itself invalid. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._state_and_local_government_responses_to_the_COVID-19_pandemic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._state_and_local_governmen...
alecst 1y ago
Well the point of wearing a mask is mostly to protect vulnerable people, and to slow the spread of a disease. These protests are also about protecting vulnerable people. And, I would argue, to slow the spread of a disease.
- dgfitz 1y ago
  Lest we all forget, the messaging coming out the the White House at the beginning was "masks are ineffective"
  - motorest 1y ago
    > Lest we all forget, the messaging coming out the the White House at the beginning was "masks are ineffective" If I recall correctly, at the onset of the covid pandemic the general guidance was to not rush to buy masks with the goal to prevent a supply crunch that would impact first-line responders. This guidance was quickly switched to a global recommendation to wear masks so to prevent and slow down how the disease was spreading, so that healthcare services could respond to the demand. This all happened in the first few weeks of the global pandemic.
    - mindslight 1y ago
      as someone who was wearing a respirator before the pandemic was even acknowledged by the government - The original CDC statement was something like "masks have not been shown to be effective for the general population". It was technically correct, but if you weren't reading defensively you'd come away with the impression they were stating a negative suggestion rather than the null suggestion (ie nothing). So despite being technically correct, most people would consider this a lie, especially if they were misled by it. It was definitely a black mark on the CDC response - they should have been honest with people that there simply weren't enough respirators, delay the statement by a day if the healthcare system needed more time to destock Home Depot. But how that statement gets dragged out as an example of the government being deliberately wrong, to imply that it must have been prudent to do the opposite of what they said is also terribly misguided.
bix6 1y ago
They tear gassed patrons in a restaurant last week… not the same.
- ta1243 1y ago
  They sent in riot police to clear out peaceful protesters in June 2020 so the president could have a photo-op, it's nothing new. The US population wanted this.
  - bix6 1y ago
    Not the same. They stormed a restaurant during business hours, arrested the entire staff regardless of paperwork, then flash banged all the patrons. Yes the patrons did start pushing back but they were literally there eating food prior to ICE showing up.
    - ta1243 1y ago
      I suspect the number of people who felt that firing tear gas at protesters in Washington was OK and people in a restaurant isn't OK is very small.
dfxm12 1y ago
Why didn't you wear you wear a mask while a deadly air-borne disease was going around the world? Was it just because your governor told you to? Was it because a governor from another state told you not to? Did you even think about it? Was it because you don't value your neighbor's lives? Do you not really value your own? Not wearing a mask, not getting a vaccine in a global pandemic of a deadly airborne disease, and otherwise going out of your way to spread a deadly disease is not behavior of "resisting authority", it is the behavior of a death cult. This behavior may also shown by denying or ignoring climate change, cutting funding to health care, food assistance, child lunches, etc...
itsanaccount 1y ago
> When Americans were “resisting authority” by not wearing masks and keeping their businesses opened despite lockdown orders did you feel the same pride in anti-authority behavior then? As someone who was wearing a mask, getting the vaccine, but living in a community full of those people, I thought they were dumb and harmful. And I still admired the "don't tell me what to do" spirit because I have actual objective principles that go beyond what benefits me. And I made people angry arguing that the government was overreaching the law in what they could force people to do. Because I'm not an authoritarian. Words mean things.
mcphage 1y ago
[flagged]
motorest 1y ago
> When Americans were “resisting authority” by not wearing masks and keeping their businesses opened despite lockdown orders did you feel the same pride in anti-authority behavior then? From an outsider's perspective, it's hard to see the people with a militant attitude against basic health and higiene measures as other than narcisist authoritarian fools, who believed their personal whims naturally took priority over anyone's interests and needs. There's a reason why they frequently resorted to attacking and outright assaulting anyone who dared not cater to their demands. It's very hard to see these covid karens portrayed in the same light as the US founding father's revolutionaries or today's protesters. I guess the point is to not be consistent or coherent with these remarks. The goal is cynicism. You see Trump's secret police kidnapping people off the streets in broad daylight and when people dare express concern or opposition then the cynical "but covid" remarks flow in to muddy the waters. No, your ICE agent throwing flashbangs into crowded restaurants while kidnapping US citizens is not Ruby Bridges. Why even pretend?
- ericmay 1y ago
  The point wasn't really to compare these two situations directly. Personally, (and you can read through my post history if you'd like) I've been a staunch advocate of COVID-19 vaccines (and any vaccine really) and also of wearing masks as appropriate, but those who believed at the time that vaccine mandates were draconian government overreach literally believed they were freedom fighters just as much as those who are out in the streets of LA as the government comes down to do whatever it is that governments do about these various crises and concerns. Neither group is or was fighting for a particularly worthy cause reminiscent of some conjured up spirit of the Founders. Enforce borders, get vaccines. Open borders, don't get vaccines. Yawn.
  - motorest 1y ago
    > (...) but those who believed at the time that vaccine mandates were draconian government overreach literally believed they were freedom fighters just as much (...) This is simply not true. At face value that's the literal claims the typical covid karens blurbed, but the common thread was always cynicism towards others in attempts to antagonize and outright assault anyone who didn't complied with their demands. Those who value personal freedom wouldn't assault passer-bys for using masks and practicing social distancing, nor would they single out service workers for the audacity of enforcing basic higiene and safety precautions.
antifa 1y ago
> One person’s freedom fighter is another person’s terrorist. Lol no, not even close. One person was asked nicely to wear masks and lock down and offered massive PPP loans, the other is resisting federal storm troopers kidnapping people at their place of work who are being sent to overseas concentration camps with their constitutional right to due process being violated.
jowea 1y ago
Would the other colonies get responsible government if the British hadn't learned their lesson in the Thirteen Colonies?

jeffbee 1y ago

Anybody get tear-gassed for not wearing a mask?

alex43578 1y ago
Equating not wearing a mask with assaulting federal agents, damaging federal property, or being part of an unlawful assembly doing the former is quite a stretch. Be realistic about why the groups in LA are getting tear-gassed or pepperball’d.
roenxi 1y ago
Yes. That is part of why the various COVID measures proved quite unpopular. In Australia for example we saw the standard crowd-control treatments [0] being used to break up protests of people who objected to the sudden spike in authoritarianism. There was also the internationally eyebrow-raising financial abuse that the Canadians were doling out that was a new low for anti-protest tactics and political repression. [0] https://www.skynews.com.au/australia-news/coronavirus/victoria-police-fire-rubber-bullets-as-part-of-new-tactics-to-disperse-crowds-protesting-in-melbourne/news-story/0c7743f78ac17ffc569a75aa1e6c9fcc?nk=f03ea4252b7a9615ba49b3cd1adeb884-1749475700 https://www.skynews.com.au/australia-news/coronavirus/victor...
- like_any_other 1y ago
  You replied to "it doesn't count as anti-authoritarian if you don't get tear-gassed". I hope you are prepared for the follow up of "it doesn't count if it's not in the USA", and whatever form of special pleading to come after that.
  - SantalBlush 1y ago
    Comment one: "It bothers me a great deal as an American to see this anti-authoritarian thread of American identity...." Comment two: "When Americans were “resisting authority” by not wearing masks... did you feel the same pride in anti-authority behavior then?" Comment three: "Anybody get tear-gassed for not wearing a mask?" Comment four: "Yes.... In Australia"
    - like_any_other 1y ago
      What are you trying to say? That it's not anti-authoritarian if you don't get tear-gassed?
      - SantalBlush 1y ago
        The discussion was explicitly about American anti-authoritarianism, so countering with evidence of perceived government overreach in Australia is a laughably bad approach--no special pleading is required. It's a complete shifting of the goalposts, suggesting the person is really grasping at straws to make some kind of point.
        like_any_other 1y ago
        That doesn't answer my question, which was about Americans. > grasping at straws So stay at home orders and gathering bans [1] aren't authoritarian? Note, I am not asking if they were justified, or necessary (or perceived as such, given the information known at the time), but if they were authoritarian. If someone argues a point poorly, that doesn't make the point itself invalid. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._state_and_local_government_responses_to_the_COVID-19_pandemic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._state_and_local_governmen...

alecst 1y ago

Well the point of wearing a mask is mostly to protect vulnerable people, and to slow the spread of a disease. These protests are also about protecting vulnerable people. And, I would argue, to slow the spread of a disease.

dgfitz 1y ago
Lest we all forget, the messaging coming out the the White House at the beginning was "masks are ineffective"
- motorest 1y ago
  > Lest we all forget, the messaging coming out the the White House at the beginning was "masks are ineffective" If I recall correctly, at the onset of the covid pandemic the general guidance was to not rush to buy masks with the goal to prevent a supply crunch that would impact first-line responders. This guidance was quickly switched to a global recommendation to wear masks so to prevent and slow down how the disease was spreading, so that healthcare services could respond to the demand. This all happened in the first few weeks of the global pandemic.
  - mindslight 1y ago
    as someone who was wearing a respirator before the pandemic was even acknowledged by the government - The original CDC statement was something like "masks have not been shown to be effective for the general population". It was technically correct, but if you weren't reading defensively you'd come away with the impression they were stating a negative suggestion rather than the null suggestion (ie nothing). So despite being technically correct, most people would consider this a lie, especially if they were misled by it. It was definitely a black mark on the CDC response - they should have been honest with people that there simply weren't enough respirators, delay the statement by a day if the healthcare system needed more time to destock Home Depot. But how that statement gets dragged out as an example of the government being deliberately wrong, to imply that it must have been prudent to do the opposite of what they said is also terribly misguided.

bix6 1y ago

They tear gassed patrons in a restaurant last week… not the same.

ta1243 1y ago
They sent in riot police to clear out peaceful protesters in June 2020 so the president could have a photo-op, it's nothing new. The US population wanted this.
- bix6 1y ago
  Not the same. They stormed a restaurant during business hours, arrested the entire staff regardless of paperwork, then flash banged all the patrons. Yes the patrons did start pushing back but they were literally there eating food prior to ICE showing up.
  - ta1243 1y ago
    I suspect the number of people who felt that firing tear gas at protesters in Washington was OK and people in a restaurant isn't OK is very small.

dfxm12 1y ago

Why didn't you wear you wear a mask while a deadly air-borne disease was going around the world? Was it just because your governor told you to? Was it because a governor from another state told you not to? Did you even think about it? Was it because you don't value your neighbor's lives? Do you not really value your own? Not wearing a mask, not getting a vaccine in a global pandemic of a deadly airborne disease, and otherwise going out of your way to spread a deadly disease is not behavior of "resisting authority", it is the behavior of a death cult. This behavior may also shown by denying or ignoring climate change, cutting funding to health care, food assistance, child lunches, etc...

itsanaccount 1y ago

> When Americans were “resisting authority” by not wearing masks and keeping their businesses opened despite lockdown orders did you feel the same pride in anti-authority behavior then? As someone who was wearing a mask, getting the vaccine, but living in a community full of those people, I thought they were dumb and harmful. And I still admired the "don't tell me what to do" spirit because I have actual objective principles that go beyond what benefits me. And I made people angry arguing that the government was overreaching the law in what they could force people to do. Because I'm not an authoritarian. Words mean things.

mcphage 1y ago

[flagged]

motorest 1y ago

> When Americans were “resisting authority” by not wearing masks and keeping their businesses opened despite lockdown orders did you feel the same pride in anti-authority behavior then? From an outsider's perspective, it's hard to see the people with a militant attitude against basic health and higiene measures as other than narcisist authoritarian fools, who believed their personal whims naturally took priority over anyone's interests and needs. There's a reason why they frequently resorted to attacking and outright assaulting anyone who dared not cater to their demands. It's very hard to see these covid karens portrayed in the same light as the US founding father's revolutionaries or today's protesters. I guess the point is to not be consistent or coherent with these remarks. The goal is cynicism. You see Trump's secret police kidnapping people off the streets in broad daylight and when people dare express concern or opposition then the cynical "but covid" remarks flow in to muddy the waters. No, your ICE agent throwing flashbangs into crowded restaurants while kidnapping US citizens is not Ruby Bridges. Why even pretend?

ericmay 1y ago
The point wasn't really to compare these two situations directly. Personally, (and you can read through my post history if you'd like) I've been a staunch advocate of COVID-19 vaccines (and any vaccine really) and also of wearing masks as appropriate, but those who believed at the time that vaccine mandates were draconian government overreach literally believed they were freedom fighters just as much as those who are out in the streets of LA as the government comes down to do whatever it is that governments do about these various crises and concerns. Neither group is or was fighting for a particularly worthy cause reminiscent of some conjured up spirit of the Founders. Enforce borders, get vaccines. Open borders, don't get vaccines. Yawn.
- motorest 1y ago
  > (...) but those who believed at the time that vaccine mandates were draconian government overreach literally believed they were freedom fighters just as much (...) This is simply not true. At face value that's the literal claims the typical covid karens blurbed, but the common thread was always cynicism towards others in attempts to antagonize and outright assault anyone who didn't complied with their demands. Those who value personal freedom wouldn't assault passer-bys for using masks and practicing social distancing, nor would they single out service workers for the audacity of enforcing basic higiene and safety precautions.

antifa 1y ago

> One person’s freedom fighter is another person’s terrorist. Lol no, not even close. One person was asked nicely to wear masks and lock down and offered massive PPP loans, the other is resisting federal storm troopers kidnapping people at their place of work who are being sent to overseas concentration camps with their constitutional right to due process being violated.

jowea 1y ago

Would the other colonies get responsible government if the British hadn't learned their lesson in the Thirteen Colonies?