5 ms·

DHH: Speaking Again and Making Way to Many Assumptions - Curtis McHale

15 points by curtismch 14y ago

bradleyland 14y ago
Meh, have some faith in the reader. Nothing you read will apply to your life/business 100%. You have to be smart enough to know what's relevant and what's not. Also, authors often use strong language, because no one wants to read a flaccid diatribe. If you're worked up about it, the author got what he wanted.
- jeremyjh 14y ago
  What did DHH say that was relevant?
  - bradleyland 14y ago
    I can't answer that for you, because it's all relative to your goals. Maybe nothing at all. This is why some people are effective, and others are not. Some people get hung up on whether someone else is right or wrong, while others take what's useful and move on.
- EzGraphs 14y ago
  Agreed. I am not even sure they are talking about the same thing. DHH: - formality is bad - boring businesses are bad Bottom Line:Formality stifles innovation curtismch: - rules are not necessarily bad - boring businesses are not necessarily bad Bottom Line: Society needs structure and people need to make a living.
why-el 14y ago
I hope the author realizes there is a difference between raising a kid (requires legitimate use authority != rules) and doing business.
tkahn6 14y ago
This is probably the most confused rhetoric I've seen on the front page of HN in a while.
bhughes 14y ago
If you're hiring the right people, you shouldn't need a formalized rule that says "don't steal people's lunch from the fridge" (an example given).
doktrin 14y ago
I agree with the underlying spirit of this post in that I too often find DHH insufferable. However, I agree with his [DHH]'s point, and disagree with some of the arguments the OP made. #1. Office Formality "You don’t steal other’s lunch out of the fridge. You get your tasks accomplished, listen to your boss. Why do we do those things? Because it’s a formality, but we have to do it." Frankly, no. This argument relies on an extreme implication that simply was never made. Obviously DHH wasn't implying that an office environment should be purely anarchic. Put plainly, the fact that I do my job and don't steal has very little to do with office formality. I'm sure I don't speak for solely for myself in this regard. #2. Company Culture [aka. Nokia, RIM and IBM] I believe his [DHH]'s point with regards to company culture is quite valid. IBM simply should not be lumped together with RIM and Nokia, as they have successfully pivoted towards different business models. It was very much a "which of these things is not like the others". Pointing out that IBM is a successful company does not undermine his original point, although he was incorrect to use them as a supporting argument. RIM, and Nokia in particular, suffer from an internal inability to capitalize on their creative teams. Nokia's deficit in this regards is actually quite well documented.
davej 14y ago
DHH is talking about something very specific: the role of formality on creativity and creative individuals. Curtis is taking about rules in business organisations. Formality and rules are not the same thing. Creative people and business organisations are not the same thing. His examples are subsequently skewed. IBM may be a thriving business but are they considered a highly creative company? Also, what has raising a kid got to with anything, DHH is not offering parenting advice and there are no parallels with running a business. While Curtis is tearing apart his straw men, he seems to have missed the point of the article.
irahul 14y ago
> Rules aren’t All Bad I don't see http://37signals.com/svn/posts/3223-the-end-of-formality http://37signals.com/svn/posts/3223-the-end-of-formality mentioning "all rules are bad". It specifically mentions the kind of business formality they/he considers bad. >> When did you last hear a programmer or designer clamor to wear a suit to work? >> No more personal secretaries, memos on official letterhead, meetings that must happen in person. >> We wear the same clothes, use the same technology. It’s a liberation of the mind and it’s the new world order. If there was a point comparing business formalities with teaching a child formalities, I am completely missing it. All analogies, by definition, are inexact(or else they won't be called analogies), but this one isn't an analogy; it's more like a strawman. The blog post author is deliberately ignoring that DHH's blog is specifically talking about pointless, bureaucratic bullshit viz. forcing programmers to wear suits. That is in no way analogous to teaching a child to say please and thank-you. > You get your tasks accomplished, listen to your boss. Why do we do those things? Because it’s a formality, but we have to do it. I won't say accomplishing tasks is a formality. But more importantly, I would rather not discuss it as the author again deliberately ignores that DHH's blog is talking about a very specific set of business formalities and accomplishing tasks isn't one of them. Also, depending on the economy and my personal beliefs, "listening to your boss" formality is very limited. If you come over to my desk and ask me not to use vim as we are trying to standardize text editors, I would politely ask you to take a laxative, take a dump and then come back when you aren't full of shit, or don't come back at all. > The thing that DHH (and almost all other internet celebs) forget is that they are speaking from a position of privilege. They’ve ‘made’ it and thus can afford to say anything they want while they race expensive cars. While I have a successful web design business, I’m 100% willing to admit that I’d take pretty much any job that wasn’t morally objectionably to keep a roof over my kids head. What's the fixation with strawman? What exactly is the author responding to? All I see in DHH's blog post is he doesn't like business formality.

15 points by curtismch 14y ago

Meh, have some faith in the reader. Nothing you read will apply to your life/business 100%. You have to be smart enough to know what's relevant and what's not. Also, authors often use strong language, because no one wants to read a flaccid diatribe. If you're worked up about it, the author got what he wanted.

jeremyjh 14y ago
What did DHH say that was relevant?
- bradleyland 14y ago
  I can't answer that for you, because it's all relative to your goals. Maybe nothing at all. This is why some people are effective, and others are not. Some people get hung up on whether someone else is right or wrong, while others take what's useful and move on.
EzGraphs 14y ago
Agreed. I am not even sure they are talking about the same thing. DHH: - formality is bad - boring businesses are bad Bottom Line:Formality stifles innovation curtismch: - rules are not necessarily bad - boring businesses are not necessarily bad Bottom Line: Society needs structure and people need to make a living.

why-el 14y ago

I hope the author realizes there is a difference between raising a kid (requires legitimate use authority != rules) and doing business.

tkahn6 14y ago

This is probably the most confused rhetoric I've seen on the front page of HN in a while.

bhughes 14y ago

If you're hiring the right people, you shouldn't need a formalized rule that says "don't steal people's lunch from the fridge" (an example given).

doktrin 14y ago

I agree with the underlying spirit of this post in that I too often find DHH insufferable. However, I agree with his [DHH]'s point, and disagree with some of the arguments the OP made. #1. Office Formality "You don’t steal other’s lunch out of the fridge. You get your tasks accomplished, listen to your boss. Why do we do those things? Because it’s a formality, but we have to do it." Frankly, no. This argument relies on an extreme implication that simply was never made. Obviously DHH wasn't implying that an office environment should be purely anarchic. Put plainly, the fact that I do my job and don't steal has very little to do with office formality. I'm sure I don't speak for solely for myself in this regard. #2. Company Culture [aka. Nokia, RIM and IBM] I believe his [DHH]'s point with regards to company culture is quite valid. IBM simply should not be lumped together with RIM and Nokia, as they have successfully pivoted towards different business models. It was very much a "which of these things is not like the others". Pointing out that IBM is a successful company does not undermine his original point, although he was incorrect to use them as a supporting argument. RIM, and Nokia in particular, suffer from an internal inability to capitalize on their creative teams. Nokia's deficit in this regards is actually quite well documented.

davej 14y ago

DHH is talking about something very specific: the role of formality on creativity and creative individuals. Curtis is taking about rules in business organisations. Formality and rules are not the same thing. Creative people and business organisations are not the same thing. His examples are subsequently skewed. IBM may be a thriving business but are they considered a highly creative company? Also, what has raising a kid got to with anything, DHH is not offering parenting advice and there are no parallels with running a business. While Curtis is tearing apart his straw men, he seems to have missed the point of the article.

irahul 14y ago

> Rules aren’t All Bad I don't see http://37signals.com/svn/posts/3223-the-end-of-formality http://37signals.com/svn/posts/3223-the-end-of-formality mentioning "all rules are bad". It specifically mentions the kind of business formality they/he considers bad. >> When did you last hear a programmer or designer clamor to wear a suit to work? >> No more personal secretaries, memos on official letterhead, meetings that must happen in person. >> We wear the same clothes, use the same technology. It’s a liberation of the mind and it’s the new world order. If there was a point comparing business formalities with teaching a child formalities, I am completely missing it. All analogies, by definition, are inexact(or else they won't be called analogies), but this one isn't an analogy; it's more like a strawman. The blog post author is deliberately ignoring that DHH's blog is specifically talking about pointless, bureaucratic bullshit viz. forcing programmers to wear suits. That is in no way analogous to teaching a child to say please and thank-you. > You get your tasks accomplished, listen to your boss. Why do we do those things? Because it’s a formality, but we have to do it. I won't say accomplishing tasks is a formality. But more importantly, I would rather not discuss it as the author again deliberately ignores that DHH's blog is talking about a very specific set of business formalities and accomplishing tasks isn't one of them. Also, depending on the economy and my personal beliefs, "listening to your boss" formality is very limited. If you come over to my desk and ask me not to use vim as we are trying to standardize text editors, I would politely ask you to take a laxative, take a dump and then come back when you aren't full of shit, or don't come back at all. > The thing that DHH (and almost all other internet celebs) forget is that they are speaking from a position of privilege. They’ve ‘made’ it and thus can afford to say anything they want while they race expensive cars. While I have a successful web design business, I’m 100% willing to admit that I’d take pretty much any job that wasn’t morally objectionably to keep a roof over my kids head. What's the fixation with strawman? What exactly is the author responding to? All I see in DHH's blog post is he doesn't like business formality.