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lifeinthevoid 1y ago
You can’t convince people with logic I’m afraid.
lores 1y ago
Has any rabbi ever put together the amount of calamities that befell the Jews with constantly trying to pull fast ones on God?
- AStonesThrow 1y ago
  Have you read the Book of Daniel? The full Septuagint version? Bel & the Dragon, chapter 14? The Vindication of Susannah? Pretty much half of the Tanakh’s narratives are focused on that theme. “He who sits in the heavens laughs.” “What is this baaaa-ing I hear...?” — Amalekite property and population not thoroughly destroyed “Do you do well...?” — Yahweh to Job, to Jonah, to Moses, et. al. The priests of Ba’al vs. Elijah at Mt. Carmel “That man is you!” — Samuel to David, regarding his proto-Machiavelli seduction and murder maneuvers “Let us [Elohim] go down [to Earth] and see what men are doing now.” Genesis 11 The idolatry of Jamnia — actually that one turned out OK
azernik 1y ago
He's not "fooled" - this is within the rules he set.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
petesergeant 1y ago
I think the thinking is that God appreciates the hustle
WJW 1y ago
He isn't, of course. According to Jewish thought, God is perfect and therefore any loopholes in the rules were put there on purpose. If you have studied the holy texts deeply enough to find the loophole, that makes you more holy, not less. It's like an easter egg for true believers. The true sinners are those who think that they know what God wants better than what He actually passed down as commandments. God knows what He wants and wrote it down exactly like that.
- buran77 1y ago
  > any loopholes in the rules were put there on purpose > The true sinners are those who think that they know what God wants better than what He actually passed down as commandments. God knows what He wants and wrote it down exactly like that. So it's just man who decides "this is a loophole and God wants me to use it". Man decides what God really wants. Man who not only looks for ways around God's word but he also claims God wanted him to do this. > If you have studied the holy texts deeply enough to find the loophole, that makes you more holy, not less. It's like an easter egg for true believers. Did God ever say man should look for loopholes, exceptions, or reinterpretation of His word? Did God say what you just said or was it you who thinks that you know what God wants better than what He actually passed down as commandments?
  - pdabbadabba 1y ago
    I’m not a believer myself, but the response here seems obvious: by putting his law in writing, god invites (even demands) interpretation. What you are calling a “loophole” would just be a perhaps nonobvious but correct interpretation as applied to a particular set of facts.
    - buran77 1y ago
      > but the response here seems obvious: by putting his law in writing, god invites (even demands) interpretation. You, just a man, purport to know what God invites and even demands us to do.
      - 1y ago
sandworm101 1y ago
It isnt about god. This is about a set of rules for living a good life. Those rules are under constant scrutiny, being reevaluated to facilitate the needs of the community. The line between religeous debate and "litigation", between theologians and lawyers, is a fiction. They are the same trade under different hats.
graemep 1y ago
Firstly, if the article is accurate, it still separates private from public spaces. An omnipotent and omniscient God would have made the rules anticipating good faith interpretations in different times and cultures. It still means accepting a restriction. I am Christian so do not think the same way about religious law, but if I was asked to come up with a defence of this idea, I would argue it fulfils the purpose of the rule - e.g. people still cannot pop into a office. I am sure someone who knows Jewish law could come up with a much stronger argument, but I just want to make the point you should not assume it is bad faith workaround The article also says there is a 100 pages on this in the Talmud so that implies there has been a lot of discussion and argument about this.
- religiontrw 1y ago
  >I am Christian so do not think the same way about religious law Judaism isn't Christianity any more than Islam is. Trying to apply Christian norms to Jewish practices usually ends up in a pogrom when Christians realize that Judaism isn't Christianity. And just in case I hadn't said this enough: Judaism isn't Christianity. I have no idea why the right in America has run with the whole "Judaeo-Christian Western Culture" bullshit when Christianity was founded from the start on not being Judaism and making a clean break with it. You might as well say Cristiano-Islamic culture since there was about as much impact on Western thought by Islam as there was by Judaism.
  - graemep 1y ago
    > Judaism isn't Christianity any more than Islam is All three share common beliefs and values. Christians and Jews worship the same God. Islam IS closely related to Judaism and Christianity and the Quran explicitly states Muslims worship the same God. > Trying to apply Christian norms to Jewish practices usually ends up in a pogrom when Christians realize that Judaism isn't Christianity. BS. Thinking about where we agree and where we disagree leads to greater understanding. Pogroms are motivated by ethnic differences and othering people, not by theology, religious law, or anything thoughtful. > I have no idea why the right in America has run with the whole "Judaeo-Christian Western Culture" Is it a right wing concept? The term seems far more widely used to me than that. They see correct to me, because western culture (that of the left, as well as the right!) is a product of Christianity, which is an offshoot of Judaism, so you cannot ignore the Jewish influence. > when Christianity was founded from the start on not being Judaism and making a clean break with it. It was far from a clean break, and the intention was not a clean break. There was much argument (see Acts) in early Christianity about which Jewish practices to follow. Christians use Jewish scriptures and prayers and symbolism. The first Christians were Jews, and they would not even have considered themselves converts at that point, just those who followed the promised (to Jews!) messiah. > You might as well say Cristiano-Islamic culture since there was about as much impact on Western thought by Islam as there was by Judaism. Not true because Judaism and Christian culture had a greater and longer lasting history of geographical and cultural overlap than Christianity and Islam. On the other hand, all three religions have a lot in common.
thephyber 1y ago
I interpret these acts (trying extremely hard to find loopholes in divine command) to be ways to absolve the observant religious person from the guilt. It has no affect on the god. It’s more of a “I can argue that I checked the box when I meet my maker and have to explain myself.” Also, hopefully nobody actually takes these rules so seriously that they end up hurting or killing anyone. There was a bicyclist who was injured when one of these lines fell far below installation height, but I’m thinking more about, for example, people who need to use hospital equipment during the Sabbath.
- bawolff 1y ago
  > Also, hopefully nobody actually takes these rules so seriously that they end up hurting or killing anyone. There was a bicyclist who was injured when one of these lines fell far below installation height, but I’m thinking more about, for example, people who need to use hospital equipment during the Sabbath. They are supposed to ignore these rules if a life is at stake. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pikuach_nefesh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pikuach_nefesh
  - AStonesThrow 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - egypturnash 1y ago
      What are all those [brackets] and (((parenthesis))) in your posts supposed to mean? Do you need a refresher on HN’s half-assed version of Markdown (https://news.ycombinator.com/formatdoc https://news.ycombinator.com/formatdoc) or something?
      - giraffe_lady 1y ago
        It's an anti-semitic dog whistle. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_parentheses https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_parentheses This poster is a fan of, or maybe actually is himself, the neonazi cartoonist StoneToss; the username is an allusion to the artist. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StoneToss https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StoneToss
loloquwowndueo 1y ago
Simple answer: he isn’t. https://godisimaginary.com/ https://godisimaginary.com/
lo_zamoyski 1y ago
This sounds roughly like the sorts of criticisms Jesus would make of the ‘legalism’ of the Pharisees, by which I mean an excessive emphasis on external acts - going through the motions - to appear to obey the law while neglecting its spiritual purpose. A good example is where the Pharisees criticize Jesus for working on the Sabbath when he heals a man. Another is where the Pharisees bring an adulteress to Jesus, and he remarks that any man who lusts after a woman has already committed adultery in his heart. And then there are the parts where the Pharisees try to trap Jesus, such as when they try to find loopholes to justify divorce. Post-Christian Judaism following the destruction of the Temple only entrenched this Pharisaism by turning the faith away from one of Temple sacrifice, complete with a Temple priesthood, to one hyperfocused on slicing and dicing the Torah. (The Catholic mass continues the sacrificial liturgy, albeit in a perfect and elevated form; the Mosaic covenant is fulfilled and the perfect sacrifice of Christ - the spotless Lamb of God - becomes the sacrificial lamb for which the prior animal sacrifice was a preparation.)
- noworriesnate 1y ago
  No fault divorce if it’s initiated by the man was instituted by Moses in the Old Testament. There was no loophole involved.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
nashashmi 1y ago
The word is not “fooled” but ignored. By that metric the question is: How is man fearlessly ignoring an all powerful God? “They fool no one but themselves.” - God

[flagged]

You can’t convince people with logic I’m afraid.

Has any rabbi ever put together the amount of calamities that befell the Jews with constantly trying to pull fast ones on God?

AStonesThrow 1y ago
Have you read the Book of Daniel? The full Septuagint version? Bel & the Dragon, chapter 14? The Vindication of Susannah? Pretty much half of the Tanakh’s narratives are focused on that theme. “He who sits in the heavens laughs.” “What is this baaaa-ing I hear...?” — Amalekite property and population not thoroughly destroyed “Do you do well...?” — Yahweh to Job, to Jonah, to Moses, et. al. The priests of Ba’al vs. Elijah at Mt. Carmel “That man is you!” — Samuel to David, regarding his proto-Machiavelli seduction and murder maneuvers “Let us [Elohim] go down [to Earth] and see what men are doing now.” Genesis 11 The idolatry of Jamnia — actually that one turned out OK

azernik 1y ago

He's not "fooled" - this is within the rules he set.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

petesergeant 1y ago

I think the thinking is that God appreciates the hustle

WJW 1y ago

He isn't, of course. According to Jewish thought, God is perfect and therefore any loopholes in the rules were put there on purpose. If you have studied the holy texts deeply enough to find the loophole, that makes you more holy, not less. It's like an easter egg for true believers. The true sinners are those who think that they know what God wants better than what He actually passed down as commandments. God knows what He wants and wrote it down exactly like that.

buran77 1y ago
> any loopholes in the rules were put there on purpose > The true sinners are those who think that they know what God wants better than what He actually passed down as commandments. God knows what He wants and wrote it down exactly like that. So it's just man who decides "this is a loophole and God wants me to use it". Man decides what God really wants. Man who not only looks for ways around God's word but he also claims God wanted him to do this. > If you have studied the holy texts deeply enough to find the loophole, that makes you more holy, not less. It's like an easter egg for true believers. Did God ever say man should look for loopholes, exceptions, or reinterpretation of His word? Did God say what you just said or was it you who thinks that you know what God wants better than what He actually passed down as commandments?
- pdabbadabba 1y ago
  I’m not a believer myself, but the response here seems obvious: by putting his law in writing, god invites (even demands) interpretation. What you are calling a “loophole” would just be a perhaps nonobvious but correct interpretation as applied to a particular set of facts.
  - buran77 1y ago
    > but the response here seems obvious: by putting his law in writing, god invites (even demands) interpretation. You, just a man, purport to know what God invites and even demands us to do.
    - 1y ago

sandworm101 1y ago

It isnt about god. This is about a set of rules for living a good life. Those rules are under constant scrutiny, being reevaluated to facilitate the needs of the community. The line between religeous debate and "litigation", between theologians and lawyers, is a fiction. They are the same trade under different hats.

graemep 1y ago

Firstly, if the article is accurate, it still separates private from public spaces. An omnipotent and omniscient God would have made the rules anticipating good faith interpretations in different times and cultures. It still means accepting a restriction. I am Christian so do not think the same way about religious law, but if I was asked to come up with a defence of this idea, I would argue it fulfils the purpose of the rule - e.g. people still cannot pop into a office. I am sure someone who knows Jewish law could come up with a much stronger argument, but I just want to make the point you should not assume it is bad faith workaround The article also says there is a 100 pages on this in the Talmud so that implies there has been a lot of discussion and argument about this.

religiontrw 1y ago
>I am Christian so do not think the same way about religious law Judaism isn't Christianity any more than Islam is. Trying to apply Christian norms to Jewish practices usually ends up in a pogrom when Christians realize that Judaism isn't Christianity. And just in case I hadn't said this enough: Judaism isn't Christianity. I have no idea why the right in America has run with the whole "Judaeo-Christian Western Culture" bullshit when Christianity was founded from the start on not being Judaism and making a clean break with it. You might as well say Cristiano-Islamic culture since there was about as much impact on Western thought by Islam as there was by Judaism.
- graemep 1y ago
  > Judaism isn't Christianity any more than Islam is All three share common beliefs and values. Christians and Jews worship the same God. Islam IS closely related to Judaism and Christianity and the Quran explicitly states Muslims worship the same God. > Trying to apply Christian norms to Jewish practices usually ends up in a pogrom when Christians realize that Judaism isn't Christianity. BS. Thinking about where we agree and where we disagree leads to greater understanding. Pogroms are motivated by ethnic differences and othering people, not by theology, religious law, or anything thoughtful. > I have no idea why the right in America has run with the whole "Judaeo-Christian Western Culture" Is it a right wing concept? The term seems far more widely used to me than that. They see correct to me, because western culture (that of the left, as well as the right!) is a product of Christianity, which is an offshoot of Judaism, so you cannot ignore the Jewish influence. > when Christianity was founded from the start on not being Judaism and making a clean break with it. It was far from a clean break, and the intention was not a clean break. There was much argument (see Acts) in early Christianity about which Jewish practices to follow. Christians use Jewish scriptures and prayers and symbolism. The first Christians were Jews, and they would not even have considered themselves converts at that point, just those who followed the promised (to Jews!) messiah. > You might as well say Cristiano-Islamic culture since there was about as much impact on Western thought by Islam as there was by Judaism. Not true because Judaism and Christian culture had a greater and longer lasting history of geographical and cultural overlap than Christianity and Islam. On the other hand, all three religions have a lot in common.

thephyber 1y ago

I interpret these acts (trying extremely hard to find loopholes in divine command) to be ways to absolve the observant religious person from the guilt. It has no affect on the god. It’s more of a “I can argue that I checked the box when I meet my maker and have to explain myself.” Also, hopefully nobody actually takes these rules so seriously that they end up hurting or killing anyone. There was a bicyclist who was injured when one of these lines fell far below installation height, but I’m thinking more about, for example, people who need to use hospital equipment during the Sabbath.

bawolff 1y ago
> Also, hopefully nobody actually takes these rules so seriously that they end up hurting or killing anyone. There was a bicyclist who was injured when one of these lines fell far below installation height, but I’m thinking more about, for example, people who need to use hospital equipment during the Sabbath. They are supposed to ignore these rules if a life is at stake. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pikuach_nefesh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pikuach_nefesh
- AStonesThrow 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - egypturnash 1y ago
    What are all those [brackets] and (((parenthesis))) in your posts supposed to mean? Do you need a refresher on HN’s half-assed version of Markdown (https://news.ycombinator.com/formatdoc https://news.ycombinator.com/formatdoc) or something?
    - giraffe_lady 1y ago
      It's an anti-semitic dog whistle. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_parentheses https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_parentheses This poster is a fan of, or maybe actually is himself, the neonazi cartoonist StoneToss; the username is an allusion to the artist. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StoneToss https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StoneToss

loloquwowndueo 1y ago

Simple answer: he isn’t. https://godisimaginary.com/ https://godisimaginary.com/

lo_zamoyski 1y ago

This sounds roughly like the sorts of criticisms Jesus would make of the ‘legalism’ of the Pharisees, by which I mean an excessive emphasis on external acts - going through the motions - to appear to obey the law while neglecting its spiritual purpose. A good example is where the Pharisees criticize Jesus for working on the Sabbath when he heals a man. Another is where the Pharisees bring an adulteress to Jesus, and he remarks that any man who lusts after a woman has already committed adultery in his heart. And then there are the parts where the Pharisees try to trap Jesus, such as when they try to find loopholes to justify divorce. Post-Christian Judaism following the destruction of the Temple only entrenched this Pharisaism by turning the faith away from one of Temple sacrifice, complete with a Temple priesthood, to one hyperfocused on slicing and dicing the Torah. (The Catholic mass continues the sacrificial liturgy, albeit in a perfect and elevated form; the Mosaic covenant is fulfilled and the perfect sacrifice of Christ - the spotless Lamb of God - becomes the sacrificial lamb for which the prior animal sacrifice was a preparation.)

noworriesnate 1y ago
No fault divorce if it’s initiated by the man was instituted by Moses in the Old Testament. There was no loophole involved.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

nashashmi 1y ago

The word is not “fooled” but ignored. By that metric the question is: How is man fearlessly ignoring an all powerful God? “They fool no one but themselves.” - God