4 ms·

There are hotels and apartment blocks that have physical locks as well as the swipe card. So you can use the physical key on the Sabbath.

theshrike79 1y ago
So turning a key to open a door isn't work, but pushing an elevator button is?
- gizmo686 1y ago
  Yes. There are several explanations for this, but the most popular ones are: 1) Making fires is prohibited work. Activating an electric switch causes a spark, which is kind of like a fire. 2) We have a tradition of considering using electricity to be work. 3) This is stupid, not using electricity is more work. Just push the button. 4) This is stupid, but having a day when we aren't all on our phones is nice, so let's keep all of the silly rules to not lose that
  - xorcist 1y ago
    > Activating an electric switch causes a spark, which is kind of like a fire. So is walking on a carpet and removing your sweater and almost anything involving fabrics and motion. Is it really a useful definition of "fire" and "spark"? Most people think of those as different things. Fire implies oxygen, you put out fires with heavy blankets or with nitrogen gas since time immemorial. Sparks, as in tiny plasma discharges, does not require oxygen and can not be put out the same way.
    - Maken 1y ago
      We are talking about religion here. Don't try to rationalise it.
    - azernik 1y ago
      There's an important distinction between "thing that happens even if you don't intend it" and "thing that happens because you intentionally caused it" (and the even more subtle distinction between "beneficial side effect of thing you intended" and "neutral/negative side effect of thing you intended"). ie intentionality matters.
mattlondon 1y ago
I recently heard that an apartment block near me cannot have automatic emergency lighting or fire sprinklers retrofitted incase there is a fire on a Saturday. Forget about burning to death or falling down pitch-black stairs and breaking your neck, it is apparently more important that electrical circuits are not energized or a valve is not opened on a saturday! Absolutely absurd. I am indifferent to people stringing up wires to lie to themselves. They are not "invisible" and the poles they are on are an eye sore in my part of London and also attract negative attention (e.g. people put palestinian flags or stickers etc on them). But whatever. What I do have an issue is that someone's religious beliefs are preventing basic fire safety protections for everyone else. We in London/UK are rightly getting a lot of fire protections retrofitted to older apartment blocks because of the Grenfell disaster [1] - this is not some hypothetical thing, its a real problem in older buildings and it disgusts me individuals can veto fundamental basic fire protection for everyone else in their building just because of their own personal beliefs, despite being totally willing to go along with this Eruv sleight-of-hand. Fire does not respect religion. 1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grenfell_Tower_fire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grenfell_Tower_fire
- Y_Y 1y ago
  Ah, but it would be forbidden to start the fire on the Sabbath, so there would be no need for sprinklers!
- krisoft 1y ago
  If I were in a situation like that I would reach out for advice to some religious authority the person in question trusts. There are widely accepted fairly common sense exceptions for saving lives. [1] That could maybe apply to an automatically activating fire sprinkler. Only someone well versed in the scriptures could say for certain. (And only they would be believed anyway.) Even about the emergency lighting one can probably find a workaround. For example could it be wired so it is always on via a timer during shabbat? The point with discussing these with a religious authority is manifold. They might better know how to mediate. In both directions! They might explain to the engineers what is and isn't a sticking point. Similarly they could explain if a given technique is permissible to the person who worries about them. Or alternatively they might have heard solutions others have employed in the past previously. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pikuach_nefesh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pikuach_nefesh

theshrike79 1y ago

So turning a key to open a door isn't work, but pushing an elevator button is?

gizmo686 1y ago
Yes. There are several explanations for this, but the most popular ones are: 1) Making fires is prohibited work. Activating an electric switch causes a spark, which is kind of like a fire. 2) We have a tradition of considering using electricity to be work. 3) This is stupid, not using electricity is more work. Just push the button. 4) This is stupid, but having a day when we aren't all on our phones is nice, so let's keep all of the silly rules to not lose that
- xorcist 1y ago
  > Activating an electric switch causes a spark, which is kind of like a fire. So is walking on a carpet and removing your sweater and almost anything involving fabrics and motion. Is it really a useful definition of "fire" and "spark"? Most people think of those as different things. Fire implies oxygen, you put out fires with heavy blankets or with nitrogen gas since time immemorial. Sparks, as in tiny plasma discharges, does not require oxygen and can not be put out the same way.
  - Maken 1y ago
    We are talking about religion here. Don't try to rationalise it.
  - azernik 1y ago
    There's an important distinction between "thing that happens even if you don't intend it" and "thing that happens because you intentionally caused it" (and the even more subtle distinction between "beneficial side effect of thing you intended" and "neutral/negative side effect of thing you intended"). ie intentionality matters.

mattlondon 1y ago

I recently heard that an apartment block near me cannot have automatic emergency lighting or fire sprinklers retrofitted incase there is a fire on a Saturday. Forget about burning to death or falling down pitch-black stairs and breaking your neck, it is apparently more important that electrical circuits are not energized or a valve is not opened on a saturday! Absolutely absurd. I am indifferent to people stringing up wires to lie to themselves. They are not "invisible" and the poles they are on are an eye sore in my part of London and also attract negative attention (e.g. people put palestinian flags or stickers etc on them). But whatever. What I do have an issue is that someone's religious beliefs are preventing basic fire safety protections for everyone else. We in London/UK are rightly getting a lot of fire protections retrofitted to older apartment blocks because of the Grenfell disaster [1] - this is not some hypothetical thing, its a real problem in older buildings and it disgusts me individuals can veto fundamental basic fire protection for everyone else in their building just because of their own personal beliefs, despite being totally willing to go along with this Eruv sleight-of-hand. Fire does not respect religion. 1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grenfell_Tower_fire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grenfell_Tower_fire

Y_Y 1y ago
Ah, but it would be forbidden to start the fire on the Sabbath, so there would be no need for sprinklers!
krisoft 1y ago
If I were in a situation like that I would reach out for advice to some religious authority the person in question trusts. There are widely accepted fairly common sense exceptions for saving lives. [1] That could maybe apply to an automatically activating fire sprinkler. Only someone well versed in the scriptures could say for certain. (And only they would be believed anyway.) Even about the emergency lighting one can probably find a workaround. For example could it be wired so it is always on via a timer during shabbat? The point with discussing these with a religious authority is manifold. They might better know how to mediate. In both directions! They might explain to the engineers what is and isn't a sticking point. Similarly they could explain if a given technique is permissible to the person who worries about them. Or alternatively they might have heard solutions others have employed in the past previously. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pikuach_nefesh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pikuach_nefesh