5 ms·

There's one in Santa Monica too so that you can go to the beach. Yeah, I'm sure you tricked god...

emmelaich 1y ago
There's at least two in Sydney. One near Bondi and one around St Ives. The one around St Ives was a little controversial but the council eventually permitted it.
- jaza 1y ago
  Yep. The St Ives one involved a fairly protracted debate at the local council, with accusations of anti-semitism (whether warranted or not is a matter of opinion) being levelled at those who argued against it. Although I don't know if the Bondi and/or the St Ives eruvs involve their own physical wires? I thought it was deemed sufficient for the rabbis to just "declare" various sets of third-party power lines / phone lines as constituting the eruv, or am I mistaken?
  - emmelaich 1y ago
    The St. Ives eruv definitely has their own wire, though it very difficult to discern unless you know exactly where it runs already. I'd assume the Bondi one also, because I suspect it's not really valid unless continuous and monitored, per the article. Although I'm no expert.
  - bradrn 1y ago
    Both eruvim have their own dedicated physical wires, yes. > accusations of anti-semitism (whether warranted or not is a matter of opinion) I live within the St Ives eruv. At least some of the opposition was unquestionably antisemitic — I recall receiving at least one antisemitic screed in our mailbox during the time of the council debate. (That one went something along the lines of ‘the Jews are trying to kick out all the non-Jews’ etc. etc., for two pages of fairly small text.)
detourdog 1y ago
It's not about tricking G-D it's about rationalizing one's own beliefs. Jews have to have their own personal understanding about the relationship. We already know from the story of Jonah that there is no tricking G-d. This more about community understanding.
pclmulqdq 1y ago
In the Jewish tradition, nobody is tricking God. There's a long history of legalism in the religion - God sets out his commandments in language and you take that language at face value. Exact interpretation of that text is then debated by religious scholars, but the meaning of the words is entirely contained in the text. For Christians and those raised in the Christian tradition, this is entirely foreign. The rules are not set out nearly as strictly for you, you have to interpret them much more broadly. Generally, if you read their respective books, the old testament has a set of rules mixed in with a quasi-historical context, while the new testament is almost entirely in the form of parables. Islam, by the way, goes back toward the Jewish legalistic idea.
- throwneawayx255 1y ago
  I am not sure one could argue that playing semantics is the most honest conduct in understanding. Only the most extremist of Muslims, the Salafi, take the Jewish legalistic idea, majority of other traditions in Islam lean towards Tafsir that squarely leans on “spirit of the law” than strictly the word.
  - detourdog 1y ago
    It's not about playing with semantics it's about interpreting texts. Jews have different sects as well with different interpretations.
  - hersko 1y ago
    I'f argue the opposite. “spirit of the law” does not work with actual law though. Imagine trying to run a legal system off “spirit of the law”. It would never work. Semantics is the only honest way to interpret the law.
  - chimineycricket 1y ago
    I'm not understanding most of this. >the Salafi, take the Jewish legalistic idea What is "the Jewish legalistic idea"? It's not a monolith. What makes a salafi a salafi has nothing to do with legalistic ideas. >majority of other traditions in Islam lean towards Tafsir This also doesn't make sense to me, as tafsir is exegesis of Quran. Salafis and all muslims care about tafsir. The core differences between different groups of muslims, loosely in order of priority, is which sources to take from after the demise of Prophet Mohammed, and then how to interpret any sources (incl. Quran) (literally (salafis), logically (shia), etc.). There are different tafsirs of Quran as well, and can have very stark differences. However loopholes are completely disallowed by all muslims.
jedimastert 1y ago
I see this sentiment a lot when it comes to Jewish customs, especially when it comes to eruvs, I don't really get it. Why do you consider it "tricking" God, instead of just following the rules?
- throwaway2849 1y ago
  If your parents said come home by 6:00 PM and instead of coming home you put a wire around the city to “make it your home” and stay out, you’re tricking your parents.
  - azernik 1y ago
    G-d is not your parents, and set and worded His rules with omniscience that your parents do not have.
    - pnut 1y ago
      Is character substitution a clever rule hack also?
      - azernik 1y ago
        No. As an extension of the rule about not taking his name in vain, and rules about preserving written instances of the name, observant Jews try not to refer to him explicitly. There's a bit of a dysphemism treadmill involved, but oh well.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- lmm 1y ago
  Because under any normal circumstances we'd call this a trick? Like, imagine someone under house arrest trying to argue they were allowed to go all around Manhattan because of this wire - we'd quite rightly jail them for contempt.
idiotsecant 1y ago
So we're willing to suspect our disbelief enough to assume that there's an omnipotent sky beard making rules, but not that he doesn't approve of his little rascals trying to trick him? Let people like what they like. It's not hurting anyone. People are weird. Embrace it.
nharada 1y ago
You could make the argument that if God is giving you rules you should just obey them, not try and understand/interpret His exact intentions and do that instead (since presumably you cannot fully comprehend them).
- jasaldivara 1y ago
  For correctly obeying the rules, you first need to understand and interpret them.

There's at least two in Sydney. One near Bondi and one around St Ives. The one around St Ives was a little controversial but the council eventually permitted it.

jaza 1y ago
Yep. The St Ives one involved a fairly protracted debate at the local council, with accusations of anti-semitism (whether warranted or not is a matter of opinion) being levelled at those who argued against it. Although I don't know if the Bondi and/or the St Ives eruvs involve their own physical wires? I thought it was deemed sufficient for the rabbis to just "declare" various sets of third-party power lines / phone lines as constituting the eruv, or am I mistaken?
- emmelaich 1y ago
  The St. Ives eruv definitely has their own wire, though it very difficult to discern unless you know exactly where it runs already. I'd assume the Bondi one also, because I suspect it's not really valid unless continuous and monitored, per the article. Although I'm no expert.
- bradrn 1y ago
  Both eruvim have their own dedicated physical wires, yes. > accusations of anti-semitism (whether warranted or not is a matter of opinion) I live within the St Ives eruv. At least some of the opposition was unquestionably antisemitic — I recall receiving at least one antisemitic screed in our mailbox during the time of the council debate. (That one went something along the lines of ‘the Jews are trying to kick out all the non-Jews’ etc. etc., for two pages of fairly small text.)

detourdog 1y ago

It's not about tricking G-D it's about rationalizing one's own beliefs. Jews have to have their own personal understanding about the relationship. We already know from the story of Jonah that there is no tricking G-d. This more about community understanding.

pclmulqdq 1y ago

In the Jewish tradition, nobody is tricking God. There's a long history of legalism in the religion - God sets out his commandments in language and you take that language at face value. Exact interpretation of that text is then debated by religious scholars, but the meaning of the words is entirely contained in the text. For Christians and those raised in the Christian tradition, this is entirely foreign. The rules are not set out nearly as strictly for you, you have to interpret them much more broadly. Generally, if you read their respective books, the old testament has a set of rules mixed in with a quasi-historical context, while the new testament is almost entirely in the form of parables. Islam, by the way, goes back toward the Jewish legalistic idea.

throwneawayx255 1y ago
I am not sure one could argue that playing semantics is the most honest conduct in understanding. Only the most extremist of Muslims, the Salafi, take the Jewish legalistic idea, majority of other traditions in Islam lean towards Tafsir that squarely leans on “spirit of the law” than strictly the word.
- detourdog 1y ago
  It's not about playing with semantics it's about interpreting texts. Jews have different sects as well with different interpretations.
- hersko 1y ago
  I'f argue the opposite. “spirit of the law” does not work with actual law though. Imagine trying to run a legal system off “spirit of the law”. It would never work. Semantics is the only honest way to interpret the law.
- chimineycricket 1y ago
  I'm not understanding most of this. >the Salafi, take the Jewish legalistic idea What is "the Jewish legalistic idea"? It's not a monolith. What makes a salafi a salafi has nothing to do with legalistic ideas. >majority of other traditions in Islam lean towards Tafsir This also doesn't make sense to me, as tafsir is exegesis of Quran. Salafis and all muslims care about tafsir. The core differences between different groups of muslims, loosely in order of priority, is which sources to take from after the demise of Prophet Mohammed, and then how to interpret any sources (incl. Quran) (literally (salafis), logically (shia), etc.). There are different tafsirs of Quran as well, and can have very stark differences. However loopholes are completely disallowed by all muslims.

jedimastert 1y ago

I see this sentiment a lot when it comes to Jewish customs, especially when it comes to eruvs, I don't really get it. Why do you consider it "tricking" God, instead of just following the rules?

throwaway2849 1y ago
If your parents said come home by 6:00 PM and instead of coming home you put a wire around the city to “make it your home” and stay out, you’re tricking your parents.
- azernik 1y ago
  G-d is not your parents, and set and worded His rules with omniscience that your parents do not have.
  - pnut 1y ago
    Is character substitution a clever rule hack also?
    - azernik 1y ago
      No. As an extension of the rule about not taking his name in vain, and rules about preserving written instances of the name, observant Jews try not to refer to him explicitly. There's a bit of a dysphemism treadmill involved, but oh well.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
lmm 1y ago
Because under any normal circumstances we'd call this a trick? Like, imagine someone under house arrest trying to argue they were allowed to go all around Manhattan because of this wire - we'd quite rightly jail them for contempt.

idiotsecant 1y ago

So we're willing to suspect our disbelief enough to assume that there's an omnipotent sky beard making rules, but not that he doesn't approve of his little rascals trying to trick him? Let people like what they like. It's not hurting anyone. People are weird. Embrace it.

nharada 1y ago

You could make the argument that if God is giving you rules you should just obey them, not try and understand/interpret His exact intentions and do that instead (since presumably you cannot fully comprehend them).

jasaldivara 1y ago
For correctly obeying the rules, you first need to understand and interpret them.