3 ms·

What do you define as the vast majority of the western world? Just the US?

sorcerer-mar 1y ago
Literally not one country initiated combat against Nazi Germany before being attacked itself. Churchill stands virtually alone as one with moral clarity on the Nazis. USSR allied with them. France was fine seeing everyone else get rolled. Poland signed a nonaggression pact. The British parliament were generally happy to let Hitler have his way. How about instead, you tell me who you think went out of their way to combat Nazism?
- beachy 1y ago
  > Literally not one country initiated combat against Nazi Germany before being attacked itself. Apart from many of the Commonwealth countries?
  - lipowitz 1y ago
    The UK could have declared war on Mars and the Commonwealth would follow, so you are only talking about Churchill.
    - ta1243 1y ago
      Churchill became PM in May 1940, 8 months after the UK declared war on Germany.
      - sorcerer-mar 1y ago
        The interim period being known as "The Phoney War" for being... well... phoney. A technical satisfaction of their obligations to Poland and no more.
- yread 1y ago
  British government even signed a british german naval friendship on the eve of Munich agreement. Moral clarity haha
  - lostlogin 1y ago
    How else were they going to get peace in our time?
    - arethuza 1y ago
      Nitpick: It was "peace for our time" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_for_our_time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_for_our_time
  - flir 1y ago
    Meanwhile, back home... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_rearmament_before_World_War_II https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_rearmament_before_Worl...
- ta1243 1y ago
  > Literally not one country initiated combat against Nazi Germany before being attacked itself. The UK and France both declared war at the same time after Germany invaded Poland. I think the UK fired the first bullets -- or rather depth charges, on Sep 3rd. That resulted in damage and no deaths. A few hours later Germany attacked a UK passenger liner and killed over 100 civilians - not just Brits but also Canadians and Americans. The day later the RAF bombed a German naval port, causing little damage, but again attacks. France had the Saar offensive within days, so France fired the first shots between France and Germany. Nazi invasion of the Benelux and France was inevitable, but technically France attacked Germany before Germany attacked France. > The British parliament were generally happy to let Hitler have his way. Britain was mobilising throughout the late 30s. Declaring war at Munich could well have resulted in a British loss - the RAF wasn't really capable of running the Battle of Britain, it barely survived even with the extra year of preparation. On the other hand Nazis were less prepared too. Who knows what that would have done - perhaps a coup against Hitler would have succeeded. On the other hand perhaps there would have been no support for war - leading to a resignation of Chamberlain, Halifax becoming PM who was even more stronger into appeasement, and a swift truce hammered out, with no the UK abandoning Poland. Churchill was of course more wary of Hitler, but Chamberlain is the one who declared war.
  - sorcerer-mar 1y ago
    This is pretty much a complete and comprehensive description of what's now called the Phoney War for being pretty much nonexistent beyond the bare minimum required to "check the box" for England and France's "defense" of Poland (which, to be clear, waiting for your ally to be directly attacked == not doing anything until you are attacked) Not that I think any of this is indefensible, to be clear, but it is obvious in the moral clarity of today that offensive action against Nazi Germany would have been justified. The reason no one engaged in it was because it wasn't morally clear at the time.
    - ta1243 1y ago
      I don't understand when you consider the first attack by Germany on the UK? The invasion of Poland? Even if you ignore early engagements in September 1939, from April the UK was involved in fighting in Norway - losing over 4000 troops in the process. The war wasn't waged particularly well by France or the UK in 39/40, being too late to be involved in Finland and failing to successfully defend Norway, but it was certainly waged in Norway. The failures led to the fall of both Daladier and Chamberlain, but thousands of British troops had been killed before Churchill became Prime Minister.

Literally not one country initiated combat against Nazi Germany before being attacked itself. Churchill stands virtually alone as one with moral clarity on the Nazis. USSR allied with them. France was fine seeing everyone else get rolled. Poland signed a nonaggression pact. The British parliament were generally happy to let Hitler have his way. How about instead, you tell me who you think went out of their way to combat Nazism?

beachy 1y ago
> Literally not one country initiated combat against Nazi Germany before being attacked itself. Apart from many of the Commonwealth countries?
- lipowitz 1y ago
  The UK could have declared war on Mars and the Commonwealth would follow, so you are only talking about Churchill.
  - ta1243 1y ago
    Churchill became PM in May 1940, 8 months after the UK declared war on Germany.
    - sorcerer-mar 1y ago
      The interim period being known as "The Phoney War" for being... well... phoney. A technical satisfaction of their obligations to Poland and no more.
yread 1y ago
British government even signed a british german naval friendship on the eve of Munich agreement. Moral clarity haha
- lostlogin 1y ago
  How else were they going to get peace in our time?
  - arethuza 1y ago
    Nitpick: It was "peace for our time" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_for_our_time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_for_our_time
- flir 1y ago
  Meanwhile, back home... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_rearmament_before_World_War_II https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_rearmament_before_Worl...
ta1243 1y ago
> Literally not one country initiated combat against Nazi Germany before being attacked itself. The UK and France both declared war at the same time after Germany invaded Poland. I think the UK fired the first bullets -- or rather depth charges, on Sep 3rd. That resulted in damage and no deaths. A few hours later Germany attacked a UK passenger liner and killed over 100 civilians - not just Brits but also Canadians and Americans. The day later the RAF bombed a German naval port, causing little damage, but again attacks. France had the Saar offensive within days, so France fired the first shots between France and Germany. Nazi invasion of the Benelux and France was inevitable, but technically France attacked Germany before Germany attacked France. > The British parliament were generally happy to let Hitler have his way. Britain was mobilising throughout the late 30s. Declaring war at Munich could well have resulted in a British loss - the RAF wasn't really capable of running the Battle of Britain, it barely survived even with the extra year of preparation. On the other hand Nazis were less prepared too. Who knows what that would have done - perhaps a coup against Hitler would have succeeded. On the other hand perhaps there would have been no support for war - leading to a resignation of Chamberlain, Halifax becoming PM who was even more stronger into appeasement, and a swift truce hammered out, with no the UK abandoning Poland. Churchill was of course more wary of Hitler, but Chamberlain is the one who declared war.
- sorcerer-mar 1y ago
  This is pretty much a complete and comprehensive description of what's now called the Phoney War for being pretty much nonexistent beyond the bare minimum required to "check the box" for England and France's "defense" of Poland (which, to be clear, waiting for your ally to be directly attacked == not doing anything until you are attacked) Not that I think any of this is indefensible, to be clear, but it is obvious in the moral clarity of today that offensive action against Nazi Germany would have been justified. The reason no one engaged in it was because it wasn't morally clear at the time.
  - ta1243 1y ago
    I don't understand when you consider the first attack by Germany on the UK? The invasion of Poland? Even if you ignore early engagements in September 1939, from April the UK was involved in fighting in Norway - losing over 4000 troops in the process. The war wasn't waged particularly well by France or the UK in 39/40, being too late to be involved in Finland and failing to successfully defend Norway, but it was certainly waged in Norway. The failures led to the fall of both Daladier and Chamberlain, but thousands of British troops had been killed before Churchill became Prime Minister.