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Traveling abroad to asian countries it becomes immediately and shockingly clear how intolerable surveillance really can be. Between having your face and fingerp

Traveling abroad to asian countries it becomes immediately and shockingly clear how intolerable surveillance really can be. Between having your face and fingerprints scanned on a pirated windows xp pc to being fined heavily for going 51 kph in 50 zone it can be hard to imagine how much worse it can get from there, but it can.

jdsnape 1y ago
I’m interested in how strong your reaction is to those two examples. Could you explain why those are such terrible things?
- FridayoLeary 1y ago
  Come on. It's blindingly obvious to anyone not used to these things why it's inherently bad. To people who live in a police state you eventually get used to such things. For example i really believe that traffic enforcement cameras are state oppression. They create more human suffering then they prevent. it's just that people are used to it so they don't protest.
  - jdsnape 1y ago
    I asked because it wasn’t blindingly obvious, and I genuinely want to understand. Taking the traffic enforcement then - we’re talking about a dangerous piece of machinery that you’re allowed to operate in a public place under certain conditions in order to reduce the risk to others. One of those conditions is speed. It seems blindingly obvious to me that if a society agrees those conditions it should also enforce them?
    - FridayoLeary 1y ago
      Yes but speed cameras quickly turn into a revenue source for greedy councils. It's hard to tell how much they actually care about speeding offences and doing what they think they can get away with. As a general rule these things start with sincere intentions but often devolve into cynical exploitation. So if you weigh the benefits of speed cameras against the suffering they cause i think you would find they aren't a good thing. Getting to your original question i think many people don't trust that their face and fingerprint scans will be used in a way that would be in the publics interest. Its more likely that the authorities would find a way to use that data against you.
      - gregjor 1y ago
        How exactly do you weigh the “suffering” — I would call it inconvenience or annoyance — of traffic fines against bodily harm caused by dangerous drivers? A fine versus a hospital stay or worse?
        FridayoLeary 1y ago
        I'm honestly not sure what the balance is, but there is a point where one bad accident is worth less then many speeding tickets. It's obvious when you think about it- otherwise the speed limit would be 20 mph everywhere. I'm really not sure where and how you draw the line but i do think we should err on the side of less surveillance. That's the predominant view on hn.
        owebmaster 1y ago
        > That's the predominant view on hn. Only in the doge side of HN > I'm honestly not sure what the balance is, but there is a point where one bad accident is worth less then many speeding tickets. No amount of speeding tickets is worth one kid killed by a drunk driver.
        atmavatar 1y ago
        >> That's the predominant view on hn. > Only in the doge side of HN That's hardly true. I'm pretty far from the doge end of the spectrum, but I want as little surveillance as possible (ideally: only via court order). You need only read about what impact a simple census question about religious affiliation had in the 1930s/40s to realize that information about yourself can very quickly be used for very dark purposes. We've already seen stories about red states using data from social media and phone apps to target women who may have gotten abortions. I can think of plenty of not so great ways red light camera data can be (and probably already is being) used for things completely outside the scope of merely automating speeding and red light crossing tickets.
        FridayoLeary 1y ago
        Did you read the article? >No amount of speeding tickets is worth one kid killed by a drunk driver. In an idealised plane of existence i agree with you, but real life is about finding the right balance.
  - MangoToupe 1y ago
    > It's blindingly obvious to anyone not used to these things why it's inherently bad What, like actually enforcing laws? I live in the US and I would love a way to rein in traffic. Enforcing traffic laws is literally the best thing the police do.
    - eesmith 1y ago
      The best way to rein in traffic is to design roads for the speed you want. US roads are built to encourage speeding.
bitwize 1y ago
Entering Japan there's a nice friendly line marked "Japanese" where everyone just passes in smoothly, and a grim dystopian line marked "Foreigner" at which your fingerprints and photo are taken before you're allowed entry. It's like humans vs. fookin' prawns in District 9. And this is Japan, one of the more liberal East Asian states. Japanese businesses often refuse foreigners outright, or, like famed cheap-goods retailer Don Quijote, have notices posted indicating they can demand you cough up your passport at any time, so have it ready before entering. At least the customs agents were friendly, in that Japanese way, even as they asked me probing questions like why I flew in from Helsinki on Finnair instead of over the Pacific on an American airline. Though they seemed content with my answer ("because it was cheaper").
- alkh 1y ago
  To be fair, getting fingerprints and photo taken is a standard nowadays for many countries in the world, especially if you need to apply for a visa. My guess would be that this is a norm for the majority of people not from the first-world countries. I personally had to do that for Canada, Japan, and EU
  - bitwize 1y ago
    I flew through the EU on my way into Japan and didn't have to get printed. The bored Parisian customs guy didn't even stamp my passport properly... which caused a bit of trouble when I landed in Helsinki. But no one, not even the Finns, demanded my fingerprints. Of course, this was 2011, which was forever ago in national-security time.
    - gregjor 1y ago
      Finland along with most of the rest of western Europe will roll out biometric identification ( fingerprints and photos) as part of the delayed ETIAS program, scheduled for this year.
- gregjor 1y ago
  You gave some exaggerations and misinterpretations. Every country has separate immigration lines for citizens and foreigners. Immigration officials have access to national databases but not those of other countries. Like the USA and most other countries Japan has biometric data associated with passports, but only has direct access to match that for Japanese passports. Perhaps you have never experienced the “dystopian” foreigner entry process in the USA or your own country. Don Quijote has no such signs and does not demand your passport to enter or shop. If you want to get the VAT refunded — a privilege many countries extend to foreign tourists — you can do that by showing you have a tourist visa. Essentially duty-free shopping extended out of the airport. The USA does not have a national VAT so no American store needs a passport to refund taxes. Japanese businesses do sometimes exclude foreigners, mainly because they don’t have multilingual staff, but also because they want to reserve some places for Japanese and not have tourists overrun every locals restaurant and bar. Customs and immigration officials everywhere ask probing questions to catch smugglers and criminals. Annoying perhaps but hardly a Japanese thing. Part of the job description. You have no right to enter a foreign country, the immigration officers get to determine that.
gregjor 1y ago
On the other hand, as an American citizen living in Asia after spending most of my life in the USA, I like not getting mugged, assaulted, or run over by a speeding car. I think you refer to China, or maybe Japan or Singapore. Not every country in Asia has advanced surveillance. The UK, Canada, and America have advanced the same technology but use it in other ways, which is why American police can’t make the subways or roads safe like the Japanese have, but monitor your social media posts and emails for signs of terrorism and political dissent.
sometimes_all 1y ago
> Between having your face and fingerprints scanned I'll assume you aren't familiar with a US visa consular appointment.

jdsnape 1y ago

I’m interested in how strong your reaction is to those two examples. Could you explain why those are such terrible things?

FridayoLeary 1y ago
Come on. It's blindingly obvious to anyone not used to these things why it's inherently bad. To people who live in a police state you eventually get used to such things. For example i really believe that traffic enforcement cameras are state oppression. They create more human suffering then they prevent. it's just that people are used to it so they don't protest.
- jdsnape 1y ago
  I asked because it wasn’t blindingly obvious, and I genuinely want to understand. Taking the traffic enforcement then - we’re talking about a dangerous piece of machinery that you’re allowed to operate in a public place under certain conditions in order to reduce the risk to others. One of those conditions is speed. It seems blindingly obvious to me that if a society agrees those conditions it should also enforce them?
  - FridayoLeary 1y ago
    Yes but speed cameras quickly turn into a revenue source for greedy councils. It's hard to tell how much they actually care about speeding offences and doing what they think they can get away with. As a general rule these things start with sincere intentions but often devolve into cynical exploitation. So if you weigh the benefits of speed cameras against the suffering they cause i think you would find they aren't a good thing. Getting to your original question i think many people don't trust that their face and fingerprint scans will be used in a way that would be in the publics interest. Its more likely that the authorities would find a way to use that data against you.
    - gregjor 1y ago
      How exactly do you weigh the “suffering” — I would call it inconvenience or annoyance — of traffic fines against bodily harm caused by dangerous drivers? A fine versus a hospital stay or worse?
      - FridayoLeary 1y ago
        I'm honestly not sure what the balance is, but there is a point where one bad accident is worth less then many speeding tickets. It's obvious when you think about it- otherwise the speed limit would be 20 mph everywhere. I'm really not sure where and how you draw the line but i do think we should err on the side of less surveillance. That's the predominant view on hn.
        owebmaster 1y ago
        > That's the predominant view on hn. Only in the doge side of HN > I'm honestly not sure what the balance is, but there is a point where one bad accident is worth less then many speeding tickets. No amount of speeding tickets is worth one kid killed by a drunk driver.
        atmavatar 1y ago
        >> That's the predominant view on hn. > Only in the doge side of HN That's hardly true. I'm pretty far from the doge end of the spectrum, but I want as little surveillance as possible (ideally: only via court order). You need only read about what impact a simple census question about religious affiliation had in the 1930s/40s to realize that information about yourself can very quickly be used for very dark purposes. We've already seen stories about red states using data from social media and phone apps to target women who may have gotten abortions. I can think of plenty of not so great ways red light camera data can be (and probably already is being) used for things completely outside the scope of merely automating speeding and red light crossing tickets.
        FridayoLeary 1y ago
        Did you read the article? >No amount of speeding tickets is worth one kid killed by a drunk driver. In an idealised plane of existence i agree with you, but real life is about finding the right balance.
- MangoToupe 1y ago
  > It's blindingly obvious to anyone not used to these things why it's inherently bad What, like actually enforcing laws? I live in the US and I would love a way to rein in traffic. Enforcing traffic laws is literally the best thing the police do.
  - eesmith 1y ago
    The best way to rein in traffic is to design roads for the speed you want. US roads are built to encourage speeding.

bitwize 1y ago

Entering Japan there's a nice friendly line marked "Japanese" where everyone just passes in smoothly, and a grim dystopian line marked "Foreigner" at which your fingerprints and photo are taken before you're allowed entry. It's like humans vs. fookin' prawns in District 9. And this is Japan, one of the more liberal East Asian states. Japanese businesses often refuse foreigners outright, or, like famed cheap-goods retailer Don Quijote, have notices posted indicating they can demand you cough up your passport at any time, so have it ready before entering. At least the customs agents were friendly, in that Japanese way, even as they asked me probing questions like why I flew in from Helsinki on Finnair instead of over the Pacific on an American airline. Though they seemed content with my answer ("because it was cheaper").

alkh 1y ago
To be fair, getting fingerprints and photo taken is a standard nowadays for many countries in the world, especially if you need to apply for a visa. My guess would be that this is a norm for the majority of people not from the first-world countries. I personally had to do that for Canada, Japan, and EU
- bitwize 1y ago
  I flew through the EU on my way into Japan and didn't have to get printed. The bored Parisian customs guy didn't even stamp my passport properly... which caused a bit of trouble when I landed in Helsinki. But no one, not even the Finns, demanded my fingerprints. Of course, this was 2011, which was forever ago in national-security time.
  - gregjor 1y ago
    Finland along with most of the rest of western Europe will roll out biometric identification ( fingerprints and photos) as part of the delayed ETIAS program, scheduled for this year.
gregjor 1y ago
You gave some exaggerations and misinterpretations. Every country has separate immigration lines for citizens and foreigners. Immigration officials have access to national databases but not those of other countries. Like the USA and most other countries Japan has biometric data associated with passports, but only has direct access to match that for Japanese passports. Perhaps you have never experienced the “dystopian” foreigner entry process in the USA or your own country. Don Quijote has no such signs and does not demand your passport to enter or shop. If you want to get the VAT refunded — a privilege many countries extend to foreign tourists — you can do that by showing you have a tourist visa. Essentially duty-free shopping extended out of the airport. The USA does not have a national VAT so no American store needs a passport to refund taxes. Japanese businesses do sometimes exclude foreigners, mainly because they don’t have multilingual staff, but also because they want to reserve some places for Japanese and not have tourists overrun every locals restaurant and bar. Customs and immigration officials everywhere ask probing questions to catch smugglers and criminals. Annoying perhaps but hardly a Japanese thing. Part of the job description. You have no right to enter a foreign country, the immigration officers get to determine that.

gregjor 1y ago

On the other hand, as an American citizen living in Asia after spending most of my life in the USA, I like not getting mugged, assaulted, or run over by a speeding car. I think you refer to China, or maybe Japan or Singapore. Not every country in Asia has advanced surveillance. The UK, Canada, and America have advanced the same technology but use it in other ways, which is why American police can’t make the subways or roads safe like the Japanese have, but monitor your social media posts and emails for signs of terrorism and political dissent.

sometimes_all 1y ago

> Between having your face and fingerprints scanned I'll assume you aren't familiar with a US visa consular appointment.