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<< Do you seriously think hate speech policing was what led to Trump's government?? Interesting. I suppose I was not wrong with my assumptions. More to the poi

<< Do you seriously think hate speech policing was what led to Trump's government?? Interesting. I suppose I was not wrong with my assumptions. More to the point, what do you think led to Trump's government? << Fascists have been able to say whatever they want for ages now in this country. You have some sort of a point which broadly happens to coincide with one the previous one's I have made. But I won't offer a rebuttal before you answer the question in the first paragraph. << Can this help you face ICE agents when they abduct you in the streets and ship you to a foreign black site? You seem frazzled. My personal recommendation is to take a step back and reconsider your argument. I will offer a minor response here so you do not feel ignored. None of this should be a surprise to anyone, who has been paying attention. I will add that it does not escape me that current set of circumstances would not be quite so easily generated were it not for the oh so helpful hands of those, who cheerfully signed up for being able to silence dissent. Great job there. << You suggest nothing except "holding oneself to a higher standard" (whatever could that mean?) I hate to repeat myself for fear of people accusing me of being formulaic, but what do you think it means? << You keep ignoring the basic material fact that respecting fascists' free speech is a sure path to losing it for everyone, as is the case in the US, and in many places before it. Hmm? I deal with people as they are; warts and all. You seem to want to live in alternate reality pretending they ( and their opinions ) don't exist and have no bearing on you. I honestly do not think I am the one ignoring things. All I can say is, good luck. << Please stop it with your insufferable patronizing. What would you like me to do instead? << This whole conversation is a waste of time. I honestly disagree. I mean, maybe it was for you, but I did derive something useful from it.

thrance 1y ago
> Interesting. I suppose I was not wrong with my assumptions. More to the point, what do you think led to Trump's government? What leads to fascism? Discontent stemming from decades of neoliberalist policies, that left many impoverished and without social nets to catch them. Neoliberalism doesn't sell anymore, so the choice is now between social-democracy and far right populism. Guess which one the capital class preferred and championed? Same story as always. What do you think led to Trump's government? Cancel culture? Don't be ridiculous. > I will add that it does not escape me that current set of circumstances would not be quite so easily generated were it not for the oh so helpful hands of those, who cheerfully signed up for being able to silence dissent. Great job there. I feel like you are victim blaming here. Do you mean to say that ICE's behavior is a consequence of a will to hold people accountable hate speech? ICE makes use of new tools that were created under the current administration. They make no use of prior laws that may have been diverted from their original purposes. > I hate to repeat myself for fear of people accusing me of being formulaic, but what do you think it means? I think you mean something like "they go low, we go high", which is a terrible idea in my experience.
- A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 1y ago
  << What do you think led to Trump's government? It is an interesting question and we may be actually getting to a more interesting piece of this conversation ( I was mildly concerned we will not be able to get there ). I think opportunity met an opportunist, but that may be tad too glib. Allow me to elaborate as it partially builds on what you wrote. Way back when I remember going on a mini vacation driving through some states, which included Ohio, West Virginia and few others. I think that was before Trump was elected the first time, but just after Vance started to promote his memoir on just about every show ( not a bad read, I might add ). I had good time overall despite seeing some of the things Vance talked about on that road trip. Probably the saddest thing I saw was a sign saying 'save us Trump'. Chappelle picked up on that too in one of his bits, but I digress. Why do I mention it? After first Trump win, all the networks tried to do attempt some soul searching with added bonus of melodramatic hand wringing ( whether it was sincere or theater, I leave up to you to interpret ) on how could this have happened, and, amusingly, Vance actually said the why with a simple 'can you hear us now?'. That was obviously in ancient times when CNN thought Vance was a good guy and therefore could be allowed to make such brazen statements. My subtle point is that folks were already desperate then. The discontent is not discontent anymore. It likely borders on barely contained anger since, to your point, policies did not change much despite, seemingly, party colors changing at the White House. << Cancel culture? Don't be ridiculous. Having wrote all of the above, I can give you that 'cancel culture' as you chose to frame it was not a sole reason for that anger, but I think you severely underestimate the very human need for a safety valve. Hell, systems' need for a safety valve. Believe it or not, soviet communists understood that fairly well. It is possible it was just one more thing that pushed some over the edge. << I feel like you are victim blaming here. I will be mildly blunt. I don't really care how you feel. For every action, there is a reaction. In that sense, human interactions are practically newtonian. I get that you may be sad that I told you your very own actions and stances may be the culprit for the issues you rail against now, but the sooner you recognize this, the sooner you can make reasonable adjustments. Or not. << ICE makes use of new tools that were created under the current administration. They make no use of prior laws that may have been diverted from their original purposes. I have three questions for you. And? So? What? Every single power center is pushing in their own direction for their own benefit using every tool at their disposal. None of this is new. Narrow facts may be different, but the basic principle remains the same. And you focus on what? Theater. << I think you mean something like "they go low, we go high", which is a terrible idea in my experience. You might not be wrong here. However, I would like you to entertain the alternative, because I am not sure you did that in any kind of serious way. "They go low, we go high" at its core is adherence to the existing standard, which is basically what the society is built around. If you tell me that standard is degrading. Maybe the degradation does not quite make it null and void, but it further erodes existing standards eventually leading to societal collapse and a vacuum and I hope that you do understand that humans are not exactly great in a vacuum. If you see me arguing for status quo, this is exactly the reason.

thrance 1y ago

> Interesting. I suppose I was not wrong with my assumptions. More to the point, what do you think led to Trump's government? What leads to fascism? Discontent stemming from decades of neoliberalist policies, that left many impoverished and without social nets to catch them. Neoliberalism doesn't sell anymore, so the choice is now between social-democracy and far right populism. Guess which one the capital class preferred and championed? Same story as always. What do you think led to Trump's government? Cancel culture? Don't be ridiculous. > I will add that it does not escape me that current set of circumstances would not be quite so easily generated were it not for the oh so helpful hands of those, who cheerfully signed up for being able to silence dissent. Great job there. I feel like you are victim blaming here. Do you mean to say that ICE's behavior is a consequence of a will to hold people accountable hate speech? ICE makes use of new tools that were created under the current administration. They make no use of prior laws that may have been diverted from their original purposes. > I hate to repeat myself for fear of people accusing me of being formulaic, but what do you think it means? I think you mean something like "they go low, we go high", which is a terrible idea in my experience.

A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 1y ago
<< What do you think led to Trump's government? It is an interesting question and we may be actually getting to a more interesting piece of this conversation ( I was mildly concerned we will not be able to get there ). I think opportunity met an opportunist, but that may be tad too glib. Allow me to elaborate as it partially builds on what you wrote. Way back when I remember going on a mini vacation driving through some states, which included Ohio, West Virginia and few others. I think that was before Trump was elected the first time, but just after Vance started to promote his memoir on just about every show ( not a bad read, I might add ). I had good time overall despite seeing some of the things Vance talked about on that road trip. Probably the saddest thing I saw was a sign saying 'save us Trump'. Chappelle picked up on that too in one of his bits, but I digress. Why do I mention it? After first Trump win, all the networks tried to do attempt some soul searching with added bonus of melodramatic hand wringing ( whether it was sincere or theater, I leave up to you to interpret ) on how could this have happened, and, amusingly, Vance actually said the why with a simple 'can you hear us now?'. That was obviously in ancient times when CNN thought Vance was a good guy and therefore could be allowed to make such brazen statements. My subtle point is that folks were already desperate then. The discontent is not discontent anymore. It likely borders on barely contained anger since, to your point, policies did not change much despite, seemingly, party colors changing at the White House. << Cancel culture? Don't be ridiculous. Having wrote all of the above, I can give you that 'cancel culture' as you chose to frame it was not a sole reason for that anger, but I think you severely underestimate the very human need for a safety valve. Hell, systems' need for a safety valve. Believe it or not, soviet communists understood that fairly well. It is possible it was just one more thing that pushed some over the edge. << I feel like you are victim blaming here. I will be mildly blunt. I don't really care how you feel. For every action, there is a reaction. In that sense, human interactions are practically newtonian. I get that you may be sad that I told you your very own actions and stances may be the culprit for the issues you rail against now, but the sooner you recognize this, the sooner you can make reasonable adjustments. Or not. << ICE makes use of new tools that were created under the current administration. They make no use of prior laws that may have been diverted from their original purposes. I have three questions for you. And? So? What? Every single power center is pushing in their own direction for their own benefit using every tool at their disposal. None of this is new. Narrow facts may be different, but the basic principle remains the same. And you focus on what? Theater. << I think you mean something like "they go low, we go high", which is a terrible idea in my experience. You might not be wrong here. However, I would like you to entertain the alternative, because I am not sure you did that in any kind of serious way. "They go low, we go high" at its core is adherence to the existing standard, which is basically what the society is built around. If you tell me that standard is degrading. Maybe the degradation does not quite make it null and void, but it further erodes existing standards eventually leading to societal collapse and a vacuum and I hope that you do understand that humans are not exactly great in a vacuum. If you see me arguing for status quo, this is exactly the reason.