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Artificial selection need not be competitive in the same way that natural selection is. And even if it were, competition between genes doesn't necessarily equat

by n4r9 1y ago

Artificial selection need not be competitive in the same way that natural selection is. And even if it were, competition between genes doesn't necessarily equate to competition between individuals.

lazide 1y ago
And certainly there is no competitive or evolutionary advantage for one person (or geneset) to convince a naive group of individuals that is what is going on while they pull the strings in the background. Or a person or set of individuals to pretend to be going along with said program (if said program is honest) while actually abusing/manipulating the program to benefit them eh? [https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/latest-dutch-fertility-clinic-scandal-may-only-be-the-tip-of-the-iceberg-1.4793642 https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/late...] among dozens (hundreds?) of others. Ignore the incentives of reality at your peril.
- rbanffy 1y ago
  Competitive societies have more and more serious mental health issues. What program are you referring to? When I mentioned evolving past competition, I didn't say anything about gene-based evolution, but social evolution, where we consciously place a higher value on cooperation over competition.
  - lazide 1y ago
    Gene based evolution is constant. There is no way to avoid it; any more than it’s possible to avoid a compiler (somewhere) for any decent sized computer program, even if you’re writing in Python. So what you’re describing is not what you think you’re describing at all. Those ‘non-competitive’ societies are actually just those where the competition has been decided through structural elements which are not currently being contested to the same extent. Because someone either ‘won’ the war already, or the ‘war’ is more subtle and manipulative rather than being out in the open. If you happen to be on the ‘winning’ side of that war, then that looks great. If you’re on the losing side, you won’t get much of a chance to notice or fight about it. And what cannot be ‘seen’, ‘doesn’t exist’. War, after all, only can occur when someone is able to actually fight - and can see a reason to want to. Because in either one, someone is making the choices (explicitly, or implicitly!) which decide whose genes actually end up spreading. Complaining about mental health issues in competitive societies is like complaining about people getting maimed in war. And if people just stopped trying to fight back, then hey, world peace! (Once whatever Emperor conquered first won, of course) Society is the increasingly abstract and confusing game we build on top of all this so we’re not all writing the equivalent of assembly - aka Ghenghis Khan’ng each other. But it’s all the same at the end of the day - the computer (aka reality) runs whatever instructions gets spit out (aka genes). And whoever decides that, ‘wins’.
    - n4r9 1y ago
      Okay. But if social norms lead to almost everyone mating randomly and couples having the same number of kids on average, then what happens to genetic evolution?
      - lazide 1y ago
        Do you think that is what is happening? Because the statistics definitely don’t agree.
        n4r9 1y ago
        No, no one suggested that's happening now. It would require a lot of social change.
        lazide 1y ago
        And what’s in it for the various factions to want that?
        n4r9 1y ago
        The advancement and flourishing of the human species. But that's beside the point. What rbanffy suggests might be absurd, but not because it somehow violates the laws of biology.
        lazide 1y ago
        I don’t see any point in human history where what is being described matches any stable human behavior. So while not impossible, it is probably unlikely eh? And think of what that would actually mean, and if you’d even want it - you’d be as likely to match up with a random Chinese 60 year old, or a 13 year old African tribe member, or 30 something European (while being one of those other two) or whatever. I can’t think of any sane person that would be willing to mate with someone truly randomly. And if it wasn’t truly random, who gets to decide on the criteria? Because that is exactly where the moral hazard comes in.

by n4r9 1y ago

Artificial selection need not be competitive in the same way that natural selection is. And even if it were, competition between genes doesn't necessarily equate to competition between individuals.

lazide 1y ago

And certainly there is no competitive or evolutionary advantage for one person (or geneset) to convince a naive group of individuals that is what is going on while they pull the strings in the background. Or a person or set of individuals to pretend to be going along with said program (if said program is honest) while actually abusing/manipulating the program to benefit them eh? [https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/latest-dutch-fertility-clinic-scandal-may-only-be-the-tip-of-the-iceberg-1.4793642 https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/late...] among dozens (hundreds?) of others. Ignore the incentives of reality at your peril.

rbanffy 1y ago
Competitive societies have more and more serious mental health issues. What program are you referring to? When I mentioned evolving past competition, I didn't say anything about gene-based evolution, but social evolution, where we consciously place a higher value on cooperation over competition.
- lazide 1y ago
  Gene based evolution is constant. There is no way to avoid it; any more than it’s possible to avoid a compiler (somewhere) for any decent sized computer program, even if you’re writing in Python. So what you’re describing is not what you think you’re describing at all. Those ‘non-competitive’ societies are actually just those where the competition has been decided through structural elements which are not currently being contested to the same extent. Because someone either ‘won’ the war already, or the ‘war’ is more subtle and manipulative rather than being out in the open. If you happen to be on the ‘winning’ side of that war, then that looks great. If you’re on the losing side, you won’t get much of a chance to notice or fight about it. And what cannot be ‘seen’, ‘doesn’t exist’. War, after all, only can occur when someone is able to actually fight - and can see a reason to want to. Because in either one, someone is making the choices (explicitly, or implicitly!) which decide whose genes actually end up spreading. Complaining about mental health issues in competitive societies is like complaining about people getting maimed in war. And if people just stopped trying to fight back, then hey, world peace! (Once whatever Emperor conquered first won, of course) Society is the increasingly abstract and confusing game we build on top of all this so we’re not all writing the equivalent of assembly - aka Ghenghis Khan’ng each other. But it’s all the same at the end of the day - the computer (aka reality) runs whatever instructions gets spit out (aka genes). And whoever decides that, ‘wins’.
  - n4r9 1y ago
    Okay. But if social norms lead to almost everyone mating randomly and couples having the same number of kids on average, then what happens to genetic evolution?
    - lazide 1y ago
      Do you think that is what is happening? Because the statistics definitely don’t agree.
      - n4r9 1y ago
        No, no one suggested that's happening now. It would require a lot of social change.
        lazide 1y ago
        And what’s in it for the various factions to want that?
        n4r9 1y ago
        The advancement and flourishing of the human species. But that's beside the point. What rbanffy suggests might be absurd, but not because it somehow violates the laws of biology.
        lazide 1y ago
        I don’t see any point in human history where what is being described matches any stable human behavior. So while not impossible, it is probably unlikely eh? And think of what that would actually mean, and if you’d even want it - you’d be as likely to match up with a random Chinese 60 year old, or a 13 year old African tribe member, or 30 something European (while being one of those other two) or whatever. I can’t think of any sane person that would be willing to mate with someone truly randomly. And if it wasn’t truly random, who gets to decide on the criteria? Because that is exactly where the moral hazard comes in.