6 ms·

This made me realize that I have absolutely no idea what was going on in Africa during medieval times (and only a sliver of an idea in Europe).

jihadjihad 1y ago
Mansa Musa is totally worth reading about, as are philosophers etc. like Ibn Khaldun and others (Ibn Khaldun wrote about Mansa Musa's pilgrimage, wealth, etc.). There was a lot going on in medieval Africa, I wish I had some good sources, if anyone knows any I'd be interested in expanding my knowledge as well!
- AStonesThrow 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - gwervc 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - crusadecrusade 1y ago
      The name matters a lot less than what they say, and I assume that principal will hold.
      - AStonesThrow 1y ago
        [flagged]
    - ashoeafoot 1y ago
      [flagged]
    - pclmulqdq 1y ago
      "Jihad" in Arabic just means "struggle." There is a large gap between what "jihad" means, even in a Muslim context, and what you think it means.
      - remarkEon 1y ago
        Surely someone who is signing up for an account on an American tech message board would understand the connotation that word carries in the West (and indeed in Islamic society as well, since contextual usage makes it quite obvious what's inferred and there are multiple words that could be used instead). An innocent excuse of "well in my language it just means struggle" is only going to fool the naïve.
        defrost 1y ago
        "only" seems unlikely. There are many words aquired across cultures and given meanings that differ from their original context. Using such words can prompt discussion and leave some better informed about original meaning in original contexts in populations that dwarf the US population.
        remarkEon 1y ago
        > in populations that dwarf the US population. Why should I care about this? Is your point that the population of Islamic societies it greater than the US population, and thus they get to dictate how that word is used in this country, in its own cultural context?
        defrost 1y ago
        HN is a US tech forum, sure .. the US tech sector, of course, is composed of a wealth of people not born in the US, or born in the US to immigrant parents. You are welcome to maintain your keyhole view of language and the world, others see a bigger picture .. which runs contrary to your assertion about "only".
        1y ago
    - krapp 1y ago
      Go ahead. Literally no one will care about it as much as you care about this.
      - AStonesThrow 1y ago
        Yarr, ye olde username be fittin' fer parley in thar virtual tavern
- ashoeafoot 1y ago
  [flagged]
- petepete 1y ago
  There are episodes of In Our Time on The Empire of Mali (incl Mansa Musa) and Ibn Khaldun https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06kgggv https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06kgggv https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00qckbw https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00qckbw
- jorgen123 1y ago
  The wikipedia page about the Mali Empire [1] has a few books in the Further Reading section. This one looks promising: African Dominion: A New History of Empire in Early and Medieval West Africa [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mali_Empire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mali_Empire [2] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/34928286-african-dominion?ac=1&from_search=true&qid=AE3ZEV17Id&rank=1 https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/34928286-african-dominio...
ty6853 1y ago
[flagged]
- demosthanos 1y ago
  > It is so robust it outlasted the centralized government of Somalia and democracy, and even outperformed it. This is a pretty rose-colored way of putting it. Put another way: Somali society has a long and deep history of decentralized clan-based organization which, for better or worse, was deep-rooted enough that replacement with a centralized democratic government failed. The system you describe didn't merely survive the failure of centralization, it was one of the existing Somali institutions that resisted centralization and won out in the end. Which depending on one's perspective on Somalia's current state could make it deeply problematic as a local maximum that makes the current status quo unassailable.
  - colechristensen 1y ago
    shrug clans are small states (or whatever label you want to put on the organization that starts with small family tribes and scales to multi-continent empires), that kind of society organization was more or less everywhere in the history of every human society. There is a tendency everywhere towards larger, more complex states and a path up and down the scale locally as the bigger ones are created and fall.
    - demosthanos 1y ago
      > clans are small states Nope, clans are definitionally not states for several reasons. A state has definite territory, whereas clan-type structures have tended to overlap with each other geographically because they're usually embedded in some larger society. A state by definition has centralized authority whereas clans may not. > or whatever label you want to put on the organization that starts with small family tribes and scales to multi-continent empires There is no such label because these organizations are not just shades on the same theme at different sizes, they're fundamentally different in character. > that kind of society organization was more or less everywhere in the history of every human society True, but there are wide variances in how long in the past that form of organization was dominant. You won't see Egypt reverting to decentralized non-state clan-oriented governance any time soon because they've been ruled by one state or another for 5000 years.
KolibriFly 1y ago
Same here, most of what I learned growing up barely touched on African history beyond Egypt or colonialism. Stuff like this really highlights how much was going on
vagrantJin 1y ago
Lost history. You probably know the reasons. Many cultures within relied heavily on knowledge keepers, or griots, which was a perfectly fine system until it wasn't.

jihadjihad 1y ago

Mansa Musa is totally worth reading about, as are philosophers etc. like Ibn Khaldun and others (Ibn Khaldun wrote about Mansa Musa's pilgrimage, wealth, etc.). There was a lot going on in medieval Africa, I wish I had some good sources, if anyone knows any I'd be interested in expanding my knowledge as well!

AStonesThrow 1y ago
[flagged]
- gwervc 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - crusadecrusade 1y ago
    The name matters a lot less than what they say, and I assume that principal will hold.
    - AStonesThrow 1y ago
      [flagged]
  - ashoeafoot 1y ago
    [flagged]
  - pclmulqdq 1y ago
    "Jihad" in Arabic just means "struggle." There is a large gap between what "jihad" means, even in a Muslim context, and what you think it means.
    - remarkEon 1y ago
      Surely someone who is signing up for an account on an American tech message board would understand the connotation that word carries in the West (and indeed in Islamic society as well, since contextual usage makes it quite obvious what's inferred and there are multiple words that could be used instead). An innocent excuse of "well in my language it just means struggle" is only going to fool the naïve.
      - defrost 1y ago
        "only" seems unlikely. There are many words aquired across cultures and given meanings that differ from their original context. Using such words can prompt discussion and leave some better informed about original meaning in original contexts in populations that dwarf the US population.
        remarkEon 1y ago
        > in populations that dwarf the US population. Why should I care about this? Is your point that the population of Islamic societies it greater than the US population, and thus they get to dictate how that word is used in this country, in its own cultural context?
        defrost 1y ago
        HN is a US tech forum, sure .. the US tech sector, of course, is composed of a wealth of people not born in the US, or born in the US to immigrant parents. You are welcome to maintain your keyhole view of language and the world, others see a bigger picture .. which runs contrary to your assertion about "only".
        1y ago
  - krapp 1y ago
    Go ahead. Literally no one will care about it as much as you care about this.
    - AStonesThrow 1y ago
      Yarr, ye olde username be fittin' fer parley in thar virtual tavern
ashoeafoot 1y ago
[flagged]
petepete 1y ago
There are episodes of In Our Time on The Empire of Mali (incl Mansa Musa) and Ibn Khaldun https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06kgggv https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06kgggv https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00qckbw https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00qckbw
jorgen123 1y ago
The wikipedia page about the Mali Empire [1] has a few books in the Further Reading section. This one looks promising: African Dominion: A New History of Empire in Early and Medieval West Africa [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mali_Empire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mali_Empire [2] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/34928286-african-dominion?ac=1&from_search=true&qid=AE3ZEV17Id&rank=1 https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/34928286-african-dominio...

ty6853 1y ago

[flagged]

demosthanos 1y ago
> It is so robust it outlasted the centralized government of Somalia and democracy, and even outperformed it. This is a pretty rose-colored way of putting it. Put another way: Somali society has a long and deep history of decentralized clan-based organization which, for better or worse, was deep-rooted enough that replacement with a centralized democratic government failed. The system you describe didn't merely survive the failure of centralization, it was one of the existing Somali institutions that resisted centralization and won out in the end. Which depending on one's perspective on Somalia's current state could make it deeply problematic as a local maximum that makes the current status quo unassailable.
- colechristensen 1y ago
  shrug clans are small states (or whatever label you want to put on the organization that starts with small family tribes and scales to multi-continent empires), that kind of society organization was more or less everywhere in the history of every human society. There is a tendency everywhere towards larger, more complex states and a path up and down the scale locally as the bigger ones are created and fall.
  - demosthanos 1y ago
    > clans are small states Nope, clans are definitionally not states for several reasons. A state has definite territory, whereas clan-type structures have tended to overlap with each other geographically because they're usually embedded in some larger society. A state by definition has centralized authority whereas clans may not. > or whatever label you want to put on the organization that starts with small family tribes and scales to multi-continent empires There is no such label because these organizations are not just shades on the same theme at different sizes, they're fundamentally different in character. > that kind of society organization was more or less everywhere in the history of every human society True, but there are wide variances in how long in the past that form of organization was dominant. You won't see Egypt reverting to decentralized non-state clan-oriented governance any time soon because they've been ruled by one state or another for 5000 years.

KolibriFly 1y ago

Same here, most of what I learned growing up barely touched on African history beyond Egypt or colonialism. Stuff like this really highlights how much was going on

vagrantJin 1y ago

Lost history. You probably know the reasons. Many cultures within relied heavily on knowledge keepers, or griots, which was a perfectly fine system until it wasn't.