3 ms·

Old is new again? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celluloid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celluloid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellophane https://en.wikipedi

Old is new again? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celluloid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celluloid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellophane https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellophane

aDyslecticCrow 1y ago
Sounds similar to cellophane. But the process to make it is very different. Maybe it has some new properties that cellophane doesn't.
ihodes 1y ago
"(…) They can be used to make containers because they are thicker than conventional cellulose-based materials. The new material is expected to replace plastics for this purpose, as plastics are a source of ocean pollution."
90s_dev 1y ago
I genuinely wonder if the Romans actually had peak technology all things considered & balanced.
- astrospective 1y ago
  Too much lead.
  - 90s_dev 1y ago
    It actually wasn't poisonous given the circumstances.
    - margalabargala 1y ago
      Could you elaborate? Just because it was less poisonous than it could have been, does not make it non-poisonous.
      - 90s_dev 1y ago
        I dunno I read it somewhere that some other thing in the pipes formed a protective layer that prevented the lead from actually seeping into the water or something
        fuzzer371 1y ago
        Same thing happened in Flint Michigan, the lead pipes weren't the issue; They stopped treating the water a certain way and the slight acidity in the water caused (iirc) some sort of calcium carbonate or sodium bicarbonate layer to be washed away until the acidic water started leaching lead into the water.
    - e44858 1y ago
      They would cook food in lead pots, which made it poisonous: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead(II)_acetate#Sweetener https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead(II)_acetate#Sweetener
- phire 1y ago
  I have a hard time using "balanced" and Roman in the same sentence. Maybe the technology was "balanced", but the society certainly wasn't. It relied on continual expansion and devolved from a republic into an empire along the way. When the empire couldn't expand anymore, it collapsed and fragmented. I also don't think their technology level was stable. IMO, they were only about 200 years away from developing a useful steam engine and kicking off their own industrial revolution. They knew the principals, they even had toy steam engines. They were already using both water wheels and windmills to do work when available. They were just missing precision manufacturing techniques to make a steam engine that actually did useful work.
  - 90s_dev 1y ago
    > They were just missing precision manufacturing techniques to make a steam engine that actually did useful work. That's the point. They had sustainable and clean technology. It was a sweet spot.
    - phire 1y ago
      They were mining coal and using it for both heating and metal working. They also deforested large sections of Europe for fuel (especially to make charcoal for smelting iron), building materials and to clear land for crops. They didn't really practice much in the way of sustainable forests, unless they ran into local shortages of fuel wood.
    - wredcoll 1y ago
      Aside from the, you know, literal slave labor required to power things, they also burnt down most of the trees within reach of the cities.
    - breischl 1y ago
      They also mined by tearing apart mountains, and threw noticeable amounts of lead into the air doing it. > Roman-era mining activities increased atmospheric lead concentrations by at least a factor of 10, polluting air over Europe more heavily and for longer than previously thought, according to a new analysis of ice cores taken from glaciers on France's Mont Blanc. A lot less than modern technology manages, but a lot more than nothing. And that with a much smaller population. https://phys.org/news/2019-05-roman-polluted-european-air-heavily.html https://phys.org/news/2019-05-roman-polluted-european-air-he... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruina_montium https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruina_montium
- vkou 1y ago
  Given that their society only functioned through massive amounts of theft from their neigbhours and slave labor, that would be very unfortunate if true.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
- hollerith 1y ago
  Did the ancient Romans have transparent paper, celluloid or cellophane? Just curious whether I'm missing some connection.
- saagarjha 1y ago
  I'd take modern healthcare tbh
  - 90s_dev 1y ago
    Meh, a longer life isn't necessarily a happier one.
cloudbonsai 1y ago
Here is the original paper from the researchers: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.ads2426 https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.ads2426 Apparently they wanted to create a material that: 1. is transparent, 2. can be made thick enough, 3. and is purely cellulose-based. Cellophane meets 1 and 3 but is hard to be made thick. Paper satisfies 2 and 3 but is not transparent. Celluroid is not explicitly mentioned in the paper, but I gather it does not satisfy 3 since it's hardly pure-cellulose. The main application target seems to be food packaging.
- teleforce 1y ago
  Great summary of paper akin of TL;DR. If only AI/LLM can summarize most research papers like this correctly and intuitively I think most people will pay good money for it, I know I would.
  - bookofjoe 1y ago
    The Wall Street Journal recently started putting a 3-bullet-point AI generated summary at the top of each story.
- phire 1y ago
  We do have translucent paper. It's nowhere near transparent, but translucent enough to give you some idea about what's inside. I've seen it used in the packaging for a few products at my local supermarket. I think it's Glassine? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glassine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glassine
  - iancmceachern 1y ago
    There are also transparent rolling papers
  - euroderf 1y ago
    Glassine has been around forever. Useful for philately!
  - 1y ago
saagarjha 1y ago
Huh, I somehow never made the connection to cellophane being cellulose-based. I just thought it was plastic…
scythe 1y ago
The viscose process used to produce cellophane is highly toxic. The lyocell process is safer because the chemicals used are less volatile. But both require a lot of fine chemicals (carbon disulfide or N-methylmorpholine oxide or, recently, 1,5-diazabicyclo[4.3.0]non-5-enium acetate). This is why cellophane is typically used in small amounts and rayon likewise. By contrast, lithium bromide is a stable salt and is basically as cheap as the elements used to produce it, so it can be easily scaled up and recycled.

Old is new again? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celluloid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celluloid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellophane https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellophane

aDyslecticCrow 1y ago

Sounds similar to cellophane. But the process to make it is very different. Maybe it has some new properties that cellophane doesn't.

ihodes 1y ago

"(…) They can be used to make containers because they are thicker than conventional cellulose-based materials. The new material is expected to replace plastics for this purpose, as plastics are a source of ocean pollution."

90s_dev 1y ago

I genuinely wonder if the Romans actually had peak technology all things considered & balanced.

astrospective 1y ago
Too much lead.
- 90s_dev 1y ago
  It actually wasn't poisonous given the circumstances.
  - margalabargala 1y ago
    Could you elaborate? Just because it was less poisonous than it could have been, does not make it non-poisonous.
    - 90s_dev 1y ago
      I dunno I read it somewhere that some other thing in the pipes formed a protective layer that prevented the lead from actually seeping into the water or something
      - fuzzer371 1y ago
        Same thing happened in Flint Michigan, the lead pipes weren't the issue; They stopped treating the water a certain way and the slight acidity in the water caused (iirc) some sort of calcium carbonate or sodium bicarbonate layer to be washed away until the acidic water started leaching lead into the water.
  - e44858 1y ago
    They would cook food in lead pots, which made it poisonous: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead(II)_acetate#Sweetener https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead(II)_acetate#Sweetener
phire 1y ago
I have a hard time using "balanced" and Roman in the same sentence. Maybe the technology was "balanced", but the society certainly wasn't. It relied on continual expansion and devolved from a republic into an empire along the way. When the empire couldn't expand anymore, it collapsed and fragmented. I also don't think their technology level was stable. IMO, they were only about 200 years away from developing a useful steam engine and kicking off their own industrial revolution. They knew the principals, they even had toy steam engines. They were already using both water wheels and windmills to do work when available. They were just missing precision manufacturing techniques to make a steam engine that actually did useful work.
- 90s_dev 1y ago
  > They were just missing precision manufacturing techniques to make a steam engine that actually did useful work. That's the point. They had sustainable and clean technology. It was a sweet spot.
  - phire 1y ago
    They were mining coal and using it for both heating and metal working. They also deforested large sections of Europe for fuel (especially to make charcoal for smelting iron), building materials and to clear land for crops. They didn't really practice much in the way of sustainable forests, unless they ran into local shortages of fuel wood.
  - wredcoll 1y ago
    Aside from the, you know, literal slave labor required to power things, they also burnt down most of the trees within reach of the cities.
  - breischl 1y ago
    They also mined by tearing apart mountains, and threw noticeable amounts of lead into the air doing it. > Roman-era mining activities increased atmospheric lead concentrations by at least a factor of 10, polluting air over Europe more heavily and for longer than previously thought, according to a new analysis of ice cores taken from glaciers on France's Mont Blanc. A lot less than modern technology manages, but a lot more than nothing. And that with a much smaller population. https://phys.org/news/2019-05-roman-polluted-european-air-heavily.html https://phys.org/news/2019-05-roman-polluted-european-air-he... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruina_montium https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruina_montium
vkou 1y ago
Given that their society only functioned through massive amounts of theft from their neigbhours and slave labor, that would be very unfortunate if true.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
hollerith 1y ago
Did the ancient Romans have transparent paper, celluloid or cellophane? Just curious whether I'm missing some connection.
saagarjha 1y ago
I'd take modern healthcare tbh
- 90s_dev 1y ago
  Meh, a longer life isn't necessarily a happier one.

cloudbonsai 1y ago

Here is the original paper from the researchers: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.ads2426 https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.ads2426 Apparently they wanted to create a material that: 1. is transparent, 2. can be made thick enough, 3. and is purely cellulose-based. Cellophane meets 1 and 3 but is hard to be made thick. Paper satisfies 2 and 3 but is not transparent. Celluroid is not explicitly mentioned in the paper, but I gather it does not satisfy 3 since it's hardly pure-cellulose. The main application target seems to be food packaging.

teleforce 1y ago
Great summary of paper akin of TL;DR. If only AI/LLM can summarize most research papers like this correctly and intuitively I think most people will pay good money for it, I know I would.
- bookofjoe 1y ago
  The Wall Street Journal recently started putting a 3-bullet-point AI generated summary at the top of each story.
phire 1y ago
We do have translucent paper. It's nowhere near transparent, but translucent enough to give you some idea about what's inside. I've seen it used in the packaging for a few products at my local supermarket. I think it's Glassine? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glassine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glassine
- iancmceachern 1y ago
  There are also transparent rolling papers
- euroderf 1y ago
  Glassine has been around forever. Useful for philately!
- 1y ago

saagarjha 1y ago

Huh, I somehow never made the connection to cellophane being cellulose-based. I just thought it was plastic…

scythe 1y ago

The viscose process used to produce cellophane is highly toxic. The lyocell process is safer because the chemicals used are less volatile. But both require a lot of fine chemicals (carbon disulfide or N-methylmorpholine oxide or, recently, 1,5-diazabicyclo[4.3.0]non-5-enium acetate). This is why cellophane is typically used in small amounts and rayon likewise. By contrast, lithium bromide is a stable salt and is basically as cheap as the elements used to produce it, so it can be easily scaled up and recycled.