5 ms·

Very impressed with this report. Whenever I read TigerBeetle's claims on reliability and scalability, I'd think "ok, let's wait for the Jepsen report". This re

Very impressed with this report. Whenever I read TigerBeetle's claims on reliability and scalability, I'd think "ok, let's wait for the Jepsen report". This report found a number of issues, which might be a cause for concern. But I think it's a positive because they didn't just fix the issues, they've expanded their internal test suite to catch similar bugs in future. With such an approach to engineering I feel like in 10 years TigerBeetle would have achieved the "just use Postgres" level of default database in its niche of financial applications. Also great work aphyr! I feel like I learned a lot reading this report.

SOLAR_FIELDS 1y ago
I always get excited to read Kyle’s write ups. I feel like I level up my distributed systems knowledge every time he puts something out.
jorangreef 1y ago
Thanks! Yes, we have around 6,000+ assertions in TigerBeetle. A few of these were overtight, hence some of the crashes. But those were the assertions doing their job, alerting us that we needed to adjust our mental model, which we did. Otherwise, apart from a small correctness bug in an internal testing feature we added (only in our Java client and only for Jepsen to facilitate the audit) there was only one correctness bug found by Jepsen, and it didn’t affect durability. We’ve written about it here: https://tigerbeetle.com/blog/2025-06-06-fuzzer-blind-spots-meet-jepsen/ https://tigerbeetle.com/blog/2025-06-06-fuzzer-blind-spots-m... Finally, to be fair, TigerBeetle can (and is tested) to survive more faults than Postgres can, since it was designed with an explicit storage fault model and using research that was not available at the time when Postgres was released in ‘96. TB’s fault models are further tested with Deterministic Simulation Testing and we use techniques such as static memory allocation following NASA’s Power of Ten Rules for Safety-Critical Code. There are known scenarios in the literature that will cause Postgres to lose data, which TigerBeetle can detect and recover from. For more on this, see the section in Kyle’s report on helical fault injection (most Raft and Paxos implementations were not designed to survive this) as well as a talk we gave at QCon London: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_jfOk4L7CiY https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_jfOk4L7CiY
- jrpelkonen 1y ago
  Hi Joran, I have followed TigerBeetle with interest for a while, and thank you for your inspirational work and informative presentations. However, you have stated in several occasions that the lack of memory safety in Zig is not a concern since you don't dynamically allocate memory post startup. However, one of the defects uncovered here (#2435) was caused by dereferencing an uninitialized pointer. I find this pretty concerning, so I wonder if there is something that you will be doing differently to eliminate all similar bugs going forward?
  - matklad 1y ago
    Note that that's a bug in the client, in the Zig-java FFI code, which is inherently unsafe. We'd likely made an a similar bug in Rust. Which is, yeah, one of the bigger technical challenges for us --- we ship language-native libraries for Go,node,Java,C#,Python and Rust, and, like in the Tolstoi novel, each one is peculiar in its own way. What's worse, they aren't directly covered by our deterministic simulator. That's one of the major reasons why we invest in full-system simulation with jepsen, antithesis and vortex (https://tigerbeetle.com/blog/2025-02-13-a-descent-into-the-vortex/ https://tigerbeetle.com/blog/2025-02-13-a-descent-into-the-v...). We are also toying with the idea of generating _more_ of that code, so there's less room for human error. Maybe one day we'll even do fully native client (eg, pure Java, pure Go), but we are not there yet. One super-specific in-progress thing is that, at the moment, the _bulk_ of the client testing is duplicated per client, and also the _bulk_ of the testing is example-based. Building simulator/workload is a lot of work, and duplicating it for each client is unreasonable. What we want to do here is to use multi-process architecture, where there's a single Zig process that generates the workloads and generates interesting sequences of commands for clients, and than in each client we implement just a tiny "interpreter" for workload language, getting a test suite for free. This is still WIP though! Regarding the broader memory safety issue in the database. We did have a couple of memory safety bugs, which were caught early in testing. We did have one very bad aliasing bug, which would have been totally prevented by Rust, which slipped through the bulk of our testing and into the release (it was caught in testing _after_ it was introduced): https://github.com/tigerbeetle/tigerbeetle/pull/2774 https://github.com/tigerbeetle/tigerbeetle/pull/2774. Notably, while the bug was bad enough to completely mess up our internal data structure, it was immediately caught by an assert down the line, and downgraded from correctness issues to a small availability issues (just restarting the replica would fix it). Curiously, the root cause for that bug was that we over-complicated our code. Long before the actual bug we felt uneasy about the data structure in question, and thought about refactoring it away (which refactor is underway. Hilariously, it looks that just "removing" the thing without any other code changes improves performance!). So, on balance, yeah, Rust would've prevented a small number of easy bugs, and on gnarly bug, but then the entire thing would have to look completely different, as the architecture of TigerBeetle not at all Rust-friendly. I'd be curious to see someone replicating single-thread io-uring no malloc after startup architecture in Rust! I personally don't know off the top of my head whether that would work or not.

SOLAR_FIELDS 1y ago

I always get excited to read Kyle’s write ups. I feel like I level up my distributed systems knowledge every time he puts something out.

jorangreef 1y ago

Thanks! Yes, we have around 6,000+ assertions in TigerBeetle. A few of these were overtight, hence some of the crashes. But those were the assertions doing their job, alerting us that we needed to adjust our mental model, which we did. Otherwise, apart from a small correctness bug in an internal testing feature we added (only in our Java client and only for Jepsen to facilitate the audit) there was only one correctness bug found by Jepsen, and it didn’t affect durability. We’ve written about it here: https://tigerbeetle.com/blog/2025-06-06-fuzzer-blind-spots-meet-jepsen/ https://tigerbeetle.com/blog/2025-06-06-fuzzer-blind-spots-m... Finally, to be fair, TigerBeetle can (and is tested) to survive more faults than Postgres can, since it was designed with an explicit storage fault model and using research that was not available at the time when Postgres was released in ‘96. TB’s fault models are further tested with Deterministic Simulation Testing and we use techniques such as static memory allocation following NASA’s Power of Ten Rules for Safety-Critical Code. There are known scenarios in the literature that will cause Postgres to lose data, which TigerBeetle can detect and recover from. For more on this, see the section in Kyle’s report on helical fault injection (most Raft and Paxos implementations were not designed to survive this) as well as a talk we gave at QCon London: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_jfOk4L7CiY https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_jfOk4L7CiY

jrpelkonen 1y ago
Hi Joran, I have followed TigerBeetle with interest for a while, and thank you for your inspirational work and informative presentations. However, you have stated in several occasions that the lack of memory safety in Zig is not a concern since you don't dynamically allocate memory post startup. However, one of the defects uncovered here (#2435) was caused by dereferencing an uninitialized pointer. I find this pretty concerning, so I wonder if there is something that you will be doing differently to eliminate all similar bugs going forward?
- matklad 1y ago
  Note that that's a bug in the client, in the Zig-java FFI code, which is inherently unsafe. We'd likely made an a similar bug in Rust. Which is, yeah, one of the bigger technical challenges for us --- we ship language-native libraries for Go,node,Java,C#,Python and Rust, and, like in the Tolstoi novel, each one is peculiar in its own way. What's worse, they aren't directly covered by our deterministic simulator. That's one of the major reasons why we invest in full-system simulation with jepsen, antithesis and vortex (https://tigerbeetle.com/blog/2025-02-13-a-descent-into-the-vortex/ https://tigerbeetle.com/blog/2025-02-13-a-descent-into-the-v...). We are also toying with the idea of generating _more_ of that code, so there's less room for human error. Maybe one day we'll even do fully native client (eg, pure Java, pure Go), but we are not there yet. One super-specific in-progress thing is that, at the moment, the _bulk_ of the client testing is duplicated per client, and also the _bulk_ of the testing is example-based. Building simulator/workload is a lot of work, and duplicating it for each client is unreasonable. What we want to do here is to use multi-process architecture, where there's a single Zig process that generates the workloads and generates interesting sequences of commands for clients, and than in each client we implement just a tiny "interpreter" for workload language, getting a test suite for free. This is still WIP though! Regarding the broader memory safety issue in the database. We did have a couple of memory safety bugs, which were caught early in testing. We did have one very bad aliasing bug, which would have been totally prevented by Rust, which slipped through the bulk of our testing and into the release (it was caught in testing _after_ it was introduced): https://github.com/tigerbeetle/tigerbeetle/pull/2774 https://github.com/tigerbeetle/tigerbeetle/pull/2774. Notably, while the bug was bad enough to completely mess up our internal data structure, it was immediately caught by an assert down the line, and downgraded from correctness issues to a small availability issues (just restarting the replica would fix it). Curiously, the root cause for that bug was that we over-complicated our code. Long before the actual bug we felt uneasy about the data structure in question, and thought about refactoring it away (which refactor is underway. Hilariously, it looks that just "removing" the thing without any other code changes improves performance!). So, on balance, yeah, Rust would've prevented a small number of easy bugs, and on gnarly bug, but then the entire thing would have to look completely different, as the architecture of TigerBeetle not at all Rust-friendly. I'd be curious to see someone replicating single-thread io-uring no malloc after startup architecture in Rust! I personally don't know off the top of my head whether that would work or not.