11 ms·

From the readme: > That fork was necessary since toxic elements within Xorg projects, moles from certian big corp are boycotting any substantial work on Xorg,

From the readme: > That fork was necessary since toxic elements within Xorg projects, moles from certian big corp are boycotting any substantial work on Xorg, in order to destroy the project, to elimitate competition of their own products. (classic "embrace, extend, extinguish" tactics) > This is an independent project, not at all affiliated with BigTech or any of their subsidiaries or tax evasion tools, nor any political activists groups, state actors, etc. It's explicitly free of any "DEI" or similar discriminatory policies. Anybody who's treating others nicely is welcomed.

hello_computer 1y ago
> moles from certian big corp are boycotting any substantial work on Xorg, in order to destroy the project That's what I've always thought. The "X11 developers" pushing for Wayland weren't original developers so much as RedHat "maintainers," who (understandably) wanted a frontier to explore rather than janitorial work. All I know for certain is that X11 (even as of 15 years ago) mostly worked, while Wayland of 2025 is still full of headaches & breakages.
- dralley 1y ago
  X did not "just work" for me 10 years ago, and neither is Wayland "still full of headaches and breakages" I've had no substantial problems because of Wayland in the last, like, 5 years.
  - blueflow 1y ago
    Nvidia, vmxgfx. I would run wayland if i could.
    - mariusor 1y ago
      > I would run wayland if i could. You can if you stop buying nvidia. The problem with missing drivers is principally the fault of the hardware vendor not of the kernel community.
      - blueflow 1y ago
        You know what runs on these platforms? Xorg.
        mariusor 1y ago
        Perfectly true. What I was getting at is that you should direct your frustration to the correct place: not with the efforts of wayland and kernel devs but with the stubbornness of the hardware vendors that don't want to make their code public, and in the case of nvidia, (or) use the same driver building blocks that the kernel community recommended.
        e844dbe8fb 1y ago
        We normal people buy NVidia specifically because it DOES NOT support filthy Poettringware like Wayland.
        blueflow 1y ago
        Out of all the crap that Poettering caused, Wayland is not his work.
        antisol 1y ago
        What you seem to be missing is that a whole lot of people don't actually have any "frustration", except when people come along claiming that their new windowing system is "totally ready... except it doesn't support any good hardware". For people like us, X works just fine, with our nvidia cards, and we're not actually interested in the philosophical purity of who's fault it is that wayland doesn't work with our nvidia cards. If we cared about that kind of stuff so deeply, we wouldn't be using the proprietary drivers. IF you want people to switch to wayland, then solving all those edge cases, and making it work properly with proprietary graphics drivers (or maybe getting nvidia et al to open their code, good luck with that) is your problem.
        mariusor 1y ago
  - hello_computer 1y ago
    2016-01-23 https://github.com/MaartenBaert/ssr/issues/431 https://github.com/MaartenBaert/ssr/issues/431 2019-01-04 (only took 3 1/2 years to resolve!) https://github.com/flathub/us.zoom.Zoom/issues/22 https://github.com/flathub/us.zoom.Zoom/issues/22 2020-03-07 https://github.com/vkohaupt/vokoscreenNG/issues/51 https://github.com/vkohaupt/vokoscreenNG/issues/51 2020-03-07 https://github.com/obsproject/obs-studio/issues/2471 https://github.com/obsproject/obs-studio/issues/2471 2020-03-24 https://github.com/jitsi/jitsi-meet/issues/6389 https://github.com/jitsi/jitsi-meet/issues/6389 2023-09 https://www.jwz.org/blog/2023/09/wayland-and-screen-savers/ https://www.jwz.org/blog/2023/09/wayland-and-screen-savers/ 2023-11-17 https://github.com/raspberrypi/bookworm-feedback/issues/149 https://github.com/raspberrypi/bookworm-feedback/issues/149
    - moron4hire 1y ago
      More than 2/3rds of your examples are from over 5 years ago, and one of the links is to a site that replaces its content with an image of a testicle when hotlinked from HN.
      - hello_computer 1y ago
        > More than 2/3rds of your examples are from over 5 years ago Exactly! If you scroll to the bottom of each one, you will see that most are either a) still open, or b) abandoned (too hard or impossible), then closed as stale. > image of a testicle when hotlinked from HN Rightly so.
        dralley 1y ago
        One open issue has a comment at the bottom saying that the issue is fixed and was an issue with Mutter. There's no evidence to think that it was ever a "wayland" issue. One open issue has had locked comments for 5 years. It's probably fixed but nobody has bothered to close it. Most of rest were not actually "wayland" issues, either. Yes, someone's hobby project screen recorder might not get updated to work with wayland, but there's dozens of those, feels a bit unfair to ignore that there's alternatives.
  - antisol 1y ago
    Thanks for your anecdotes. Here's a couple of counter-anecdotes: --- X has "just worked" for me since at least ubuntu 8.04 (that's 2008, april, over 17 years ago, for those counting), probably earlier. I don't recall having any particular issues with X on the fedora machines I ran before I switched to ubuntu 8.04, but I don't recall clearly enough to be able to confidently say that I didn't have any X issues. OTOH, I also don't specifically recall having X issues since some time around Red Hat 6 or so, which would be around 1998 or 1999, so it might be more like 25-26 years since X didn't "just work" for me. --- About a year ago, I heard that wayland might be approaching a usable state. So I decided to give it a try on a raspberry pi that I was setting up. It took literally about 15 minutes before I ran into a problem where I wasn't able to do something I've been doing for decades on X. And I want to stress that I was hoping it would work - I was not out to find a reason not to use wayland, I just happened to run into one inside of about 15 minutes. I spent a couple of hours trying to figure out how to do what I wanted to do on wayland. I put a nontrivial amount of effort into trying to solve the issue on wayland. During the course of this, I found several different/conflicting pieces of advice, none of which worked for me. I think IIRC I found one option which sounded promising but which meant recompiling the compositor, or something very-nontrivial like that. I balked at that and switched the system over to X. And the problem instantly went away, and everything started working again. And that machine currently has an uptime of well over a hundred days. I would love for wayland to be a thing that actually works to the point that it's a viable replacement for X, but I grow more and more skeptical every year that this doesn't happen. I Expected it like a decade ago.
    - bluGill 1y ago
      X just worked for a large subset of users. However Wayland just works for a large subset as well. In either case if you are in the subset where it doesn't work then you will complain. Wayland has a design such that if things don't work for you today we have a hope that we can make it work for you in the future. Many of the issues where X didn't work for some people could not be fixed, and some of those were issues that are becoming more important.
      - josephcsible 1y ago
- msgodel 1y ago
  Most of the stuff that's come out of freedesktop.org always seemed to make things less usable. I'm glad to see people are finally giving up on it.
  - zzo38computer 1y ago
    > Most of the stuff that's come out of freedesktop.org always seemed to make things less usable. I thought so too. I also thought they have many problems and do not help very well. I mostly try to avoid them. (There are problems with X window system as well (and with Xlib), but still it seems the freedesktop had made things that are designed in a worse way.)
jeroenhd 1y ago
[flagged]
- znpy 1y ago
  You missed the part "Anybody who's treating others nicely is welcomed." (conveniently).
  - larrled 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - blueflow 1y ago
      DEI is not the same as the people behind it. Criticizing DEI is not personal disrespect.
    - gfhopper 1y ago
      L take, DEI and the people pushing gender and race based preferential treatment can go take a long walk off a short dock. ETA: You don't deserve respect for the color of your skin or what's between your legs, you earn it tbrough your actions. Anyone who disagrees is an intellectually dishonest wannabe tyrant.
- blueflow 1y ago
  I'm not going to pretend judging people by their skin color (or any other bogus criteria like those outlined by the hacker ethics) is not discriminatory. Whatever DEI was meant for, due to its unagreeable practices its unrecoverably burned into the ground.
  - jeroenhd 1y ago
    I, for one, am in favour of DEI pillars such as pregnancy leave and accessibility to the disabled. Especially the latter seems pretty important when it comes to developing a core component of a computer interface.
metta2uall 1y ago
Doesn't "DEI" basically mean treating others nicely?
- tommica 1y ago
  Pretty sure it did, unfortunately it got swung to an extreme extent in some circles :(
  - krautsauce 1y ago
    [flagged]
- msgodel 1y ago
  No and it never has. The default position on the internet, the one technologists working on open source always took, is that only the ideas matter and if your ideas are good you'll be included. DEI became popular because that wasn't good enough for certain groups of people who consistently failed to produce good ideas and wanted to wedge themselves in anyway.
  - toastercat 1y ago
    Any policy can be abused, including DEI. But as a whole, I think DEI has done enormous good.
  - MrArthegor 1y ago
    Yeah, from a non-US citizen views, this type of policy feel like target discrimination against certain groups of individuals. And the message sent is disastrous. Personally I am part of people who have big advantages with actual DEI policy, but I am firmly against that, because I want to be employed for my skills, not because I fit a quota or anything like that.
    - dragonwriter 1y ago
      > this type of policy feel like target discrimination against certain groups of individuals. Every policy is targeted discrimination for or against certain groups of individuals (and you can invert the group and make the same policy switch from "for" to "against".) The question is what group of individuals.

hello_computer 1y ago

> moles from certian big corp are boycotting any substantial work on Xorg, in order to destroy the project That's what I've always thought. The "X11 developers" pushing for Wayland weren't original developers so much as RedHat "maintainers," who (understandably) wanted a frontier to explore rather than janitorial work. All I know for certain is that X11 (even as of 15 years ago) mostly worked, while Wayland of 2025 is still full of headaches & breakages.

dralley 1y ago
X did not "just work" for me 10 years ago, and neither is Wayland "still full of headaches and breakages" I've had no substantial problems because of Wayland in the last, like, 5 years.
- blueflow 1y ago
  Nvidia, vmxgfx. I would run wayland if i could.
  - mariusor 1y ago
    > I would run wayland if i could. You can if you stop buying nvidia. The problem with missing drivers is principally the fault of the hardware vendor not of the kernel community.
    - blueflow 1y ago
      You know what runs on these platforms? Xorg.
      - mariusor 1y ago
        Perfectly true. What I was getting at is that you should direct your frustration to the correct place: not with the efforts of wayland and kernel devs but with the stubbornness of the hardware vendors that don't want to make their code public, and in the case of nvidia, (or) use the same driver building blocks that the kernel community recommended.
        e844dbe8fb 1y ago
        We normal people buy NVidia specifically because it DOES NOT support filthy Poettringware like Wayland.
        blueflow 1y ago
        Out of all the crap that Poettering caused, Wayland is not his work.
        antisol 1y ago
        What you seem to be missing is that a whole lot of people don't actually have any "frustration", except when people come along claiming that their new windowing system is "totally ready... except it doesn't support any good hardware". For people like us, X works just fine, with our nvidia cards, and we're not actually interested in the philosophical purity of who's fault it is that wayland doesn't work with our nvidia cards. If we cared about that kind of stuff so deeply, we wouldn't be using the proprietary drivers. IF you want people to switch to wayland, then solving all those edge cases, and making it work properly with proprietary graphics drivers (or maybe getting nvidia et al to open their code, good luck with that) is your problem.
        mariusor 1y ago
- hello_computer 1y ago
  2016-01-23 https://github.com/MaartenBaert/ssr/issues/431 https://github.com/MaartenBaert/ssr/issues/431 2019-01-04 (only took 3 1/2 years to resolve!) https://github.com/flathub/us.zoom.Zoom/issues/22 https://github.com/flathub/us.zoom.Zoom/issues/22 2020-03-07 https://github.com/vkohaupt/vokoscreenNG/issues/51 https://github.com/vkohaupt/vokoscreenNG/issues/51 2020-03-07 https://github.com/obsproject/obs-studio/issues/2471 https://github.com/obsproject/obs-studio/issues/2471 2020-03-24 https://github.com/jitsi/jitsi-meet/issues/6389 https://github.com/jitsi/jitsi-meet/issues/6389 2023-09 https://www.jwz.org/blog/2023/09/wayland-and-screen-savers/ https://www.jwz.org/blog/2023/09/wayland-and-screen-savers/ 2023-11-17 https://github.com/raspberrypi/bookworm-feedback/issues/149 https://github.com/raspberrypi/bookworm-feedback/issues/149
  - moron4hire 1y ago
    More than 2/3rds of your examples are from over 5 years ago, and one of the links is to a site that replaces its content with an image of a testicle when hotlinked from HN.
    - hello_computer 1y ago
      > More than 2/3rds of your examples are from over 5 years ago Exactly! If you scroll to the bottom of each one, you will see that most are either a) still open, or b) abandoned (too hard or impossible), then closed as stale. > image of a testicle when hotlinked from HN Rightly so.
      - dralley 1y ago
        One open issue has a comment at the bottom saying that the issue is fixed and was an issue with Mutter. There's no evidence to think that it was ever a "wayland" issue. One open issue has had locked comments for 5 years. It's probably fixed but nobody has bothered to close it. Most of rest were not actually "wayland" issues, either. Yes, someone's hobby project screen recorder might not get updated to work with wayland, but there's dozens of those, feels a bit unfair to ignore that there's alternatives.
- antisol 1y ago
  Thanks for your anecdotes. Here's a couple of counter-anecdotes: --- X has "just worked" for me since at least ubuntu 8.04 (that's 2008, april, over 17 years ago, for those counting), probably earlier. I don't recall having any particular issues with X on the fedora machines I ran before I switched to ubuntu 8.04, but I don't recall clearly enough to be able to confidently say that I didn't have any X issues. OTOH, I also don't specifically recall having X issues since some time around Red Hat 6 or so, which would be around 1998 or 1999, so it might be more like 25-26 years since X didn't "just work" for me. --- About a year ago, I heard that wayland might be approaching a usable state. So I decided to give it a try on a raspberry pi that I was setting up. It took literally about 15 minutes before I ran into a problem where I wasn't able to do something I've been doing for decades on X. And I want to stress that I was hoping it would work - I was not out to find a reason not to use wayland, I just happened to run into one inside of about 15 minutes. I spent a couple of hours trying to figure out how to do what I wanted to do on wayland. I put a nontrivial amount of effort into trying to solve the issue on wayland. During the course of this, I found several different/conflicting pieces of advice, none of which worked for me. I think IIRC I found one option which sounded promising but which meant recompiling the compositor, or something very-nontrivial like that. I balked at that and switched the system over to X. And the problem instantly went away, and everything started working again. And that machine currently has an uptime of well over a hundred days. I would love for wayland to be a thing that actually works to the point that it's a viable replacement for X, but I grow more and more skeptical every year that this doesn't happen. I Expected it like a decade ago.
  - bluGill 1y ago
    X just worked for a large subset of users. However Wayland just works for a large subset as well. In either case if you are in the subset where it doesn't work then you will complain. Wayland has a design such that if things don't work for you today we have a hope that we can make it work for you in the future. Many of the issues where X didn't work for some people could not be fixed, and some of those were issues that are becoming more important.
    - josephcsible 1y ago
msgodel 1y ago
Most of the stuff that's come out of freedesktop.org always seemed to make things less usable. I'm glad to see people are finally giving up on it.
- zzo38computer 1y ago
  > Most of the stuff that's come out of freedesktop.org always seemed to make things less usable. I thought so too. I also thought they have many problems and do not help very well. I mostly try to avoid them. (There are problems with X window system as well (and with Xlib), but still it seems the freedesktop had made things that are designed in a worse way.)

jeroenhd 1y ago

[flagged]

znpy 1y ago
You missed the part "Anybody who's treating others nicely is welcomed." (conveniently).
- larrled 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - blueflow 1y ago
    DEI is not the same as the people behind it. Criticizing DEI is not personal disrespect.
  - gfhopper 1y ago
    L take, DEI and the people pushing gender and race based preferential treatment can go take a long walk off a short dock. ETA: You don't deserve respect for the color of your skin or what's between your legs, you earn it tbrough your actions. Anyone who disagrees is an intellectually dishonest wannabe tyrant.
blueflow 1y ago
I'm not going to pretend judging people by their skin color (or any other bogus criteria like those outlined by the hacker ethics) is not discriminatory. Whatever DEI was meant for, due to its unagreeable practices its unrecoverably burned into the ground.
- jeroenhd 1y ago
  I, for one, am in favour of DEI pillars such as pregnancy leave and accessibility to the disabled. Especially the latter seems pretty important when it comes to developing a core component of a computer interface.

metta2uall 1y ago

Doesn't "DEI" basically mean treating others nicely?

tommica 1y ago
Pretty sure it did, unfortunately it got swung to an extreme extent in some circles :(
- krautsauce 1y ago
  [flagged]
msgodel 1y ago
No and it never has. The default position on the internet, the one technologists working on open source always took, is that only the ideas matter and if your ideas are good you'll be included. DEI became popular because that wasn't good enough for certain groups of people who consistently failed to produce good ideas and wanted to wedge themselves in anyway.
- toastercat 1y ago
  Any policy can be abused, including DEI. But as a whole, I think DEI has done enormous good.
- MrArthegor 1y ago
  Yeah, from a non-US citizen views, this type of policy feel like target discrimination against certain groups of individuals. And the message sent is disastrous. Personally I am part of people who have big advantages with actual DEI policy, but I am firmly against that, because I want to be employed for my skills, not because I fit a quota or anything like that.
  - dragonwriter 1y ago
    > this type of policy feel like target discrimination against certain groups of individuals. Every policy is targeted discrimination for or against certain groups of individuals (and you can invert the group and make the same policy switch from "for" to "against".) The question is what group of individuals.