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Do you really see these as equivalent in a biological sense? Like, it's not in dispute that every adult human was originally a specific embryo, with the same DN

by smeej 1y ago

Do you really see these as equivalent in a biological sense? Like, it's not in dispute that every adult human was originally a specific embryo, with the same DNA the adult has. It is truly universal scientific consensus that it is the same organism at every point from fertilization until adulthood, just at different stages of development. I find it hard to believe you really aren't familiar with this basic truth of biology, which makes the rest of your argument seem disingenuous.

BugsJustFindMe 1y ago
There's nothing special about the embryo that became you that isn't also true of the specific conditions and precursors to that embryo, and the precursors to those precursors, ad infinitum. If not for that exact sperm and egg and conditions, it would have been a different embryo which would have become a different person who isn't you. If not for Napoleon's decaying nipples, that exact sperm would never be. A person altering Napoleon's burial ultimately determined that you got born over someone else. Your selection of gamete fertilization as your starting point and no sooner is arbitrary because it is based on a selection criterion that is arbitrary, so you shouldn't be so surprised that other people might point out how arbitrary it is. It sounds like you might actually care more about the intention behind the selection than the fact that selection has occurred. That someone might have looked at you specifically and said "no thanks". That objection is completely orthogonal to age. Someone looks at you every day right now and says "no thanks", whether it's for a job or for a sexual partner. Someone every day is deciding that they do not want your sperm or your egg, which means that your hypothetical child together is prevented from being born, the same as it will be prevented by this. And it may feel bad to think about it, but the selection is that person's to make. Life is full of making selections and being or not being selected. This isn't special.
- smeej 1y ago
  > There's nothing special about the embryo that became you that isn't also true of the specific conditions and precursors to that embryo, and the precursors to those precursors, ad infinitum. Of course there is. The embryo is the same organism as an adult, just at a different stage of its own life. All it needs is time, nutrition, and safety and it will become an adult. It's the same life form at different stages. It takes an intervention to stop an embryo from becoming an adult. For any other precursor, something fundamental has to change. For either of the gametes (the immediate precursors), they have to merge with the other gamete to form a whole new organism. That's extremely different. It's even more different the farther back you go. You're either woefully ignorant of basic biology or just completely philosophically disingenuous. Do you sincerely not know how organisms work at all? What they are? That they go through stages? That they have a clear beginning, a definite first stage of their lifecycle, before which they don't exist and after which they have to die in order to stop existing? This is some real elementary school science class stuff. It's not just humans. This is basic basic stuff.
  - BugsJustFindMe 1y ago
    > It takes an intervention to stop an embryo from becoming an adult. Taking intervention isn't as useful a selection criterion as you make it out to be. It also takes intervention to stop teenagers from making babies with each other. And all they need is time. They often don't even need nutrition or safety. That teenagers left to their own devices will make babies is a fundamental and incontrovertible truth. It may as well be considered a force of nature. It's the entire history of all of biology from the very first multi-cellular organism until today. And yet modern society usually succeeds in preventing them from doing it because we recognize the harms caused by it. > For any other precursor, something fundamental has to change. This is both arbitrary and covers a lot more than you admit. For a child to become you today it had to change in very fundamental ways, almost exclusively by external social influence. You are not the same as the child. You are dramatically and fundamentally changed. Your ideas are dramatically and fundamentally different. Your feelings are dramatically and fundamentally different. Your behavior is dramatically and fundamentally different. This notion of fundamental change only holds up if you arbitrarily hold onto one particular kind of change while blithely ignoring all the countless rest. > For either of the gametes (the immediate precursors), they have to merge with the other gamete. So? That's not any more fundamental than the fact that external social influences have merged with your frame of mind to change your behaviors, emotions, and views as you've aged. You are as fundamentally changed from the child that became you as the child is from the sperm and egg it came from. You are changing constantly by merging with external influence. Your ideas are as different as ideas can be, your emotions are as different as emotions can be, your behaviors are as different as behaviors can be. You are the culmination of a lot of merging, not alone in a vacuum.

by smeej 1y ago

BugsJustFindMe 1y ago

There's nothing special about the embryo that became you that isn't also true of the specific conditions and precursors to that embryo, and the precursors to those precursors, ad infinitum. If not for that exact sperm and egg and conditions, it would have been a different embryo which would have become a different person who isn't you. If not for Napoleon's decaying nipples, that exact sperm would never be. A person altering Napoleon's burial ultimately determined that you got born over someone else. Your selection of gamete fertilization as your starting point and no sooner is arbitrary because it is based on a selection criterion that is arbitrary, so you shouldn't be so surprised that other people might point out how arbitrary it is. It sounds like you might actually care more about the intention behind the selection than the fact that selection has occurred. That someone might have looked at you specifically and said "no thanks". That objection is completely orthogonal to age. Someone looks at you every day right now and says "no thanks", whether it's for a job or for a sexual partner. Someone every day is deciding that they do not want your sperm or your egg, which means that your hypothetical child together is prevented from being born, the same as it will be prevented by this. And it may feel bad to think about it, but the selection is that person's to make. Life is full of making selections and being or not being selected. This isn't special.

smeej 1y ago
> There's nothing special about the embryo that became you that isn't also true of the specific conditions and precursors to that embryo, and the precursors to those precursors, ad infinitum. Of course there is. The embryo is the same organism as an adult, just at a different stage of its own life. All it needs is time, nutrition, and safety and it will become an adult. It's the same life form at different stages. It takes an intervention to stop an embryo from becoming an adult. For any other precursor, something fundamental has to change. For either of the gametes (the immediate precursors), they have to merge with the other gamete to form a whole new organism. That's extremely different. It's even more different the farther back you go. You're either woefully ignorant of basic biology or just completely philosophically disingenuous. Do you sincerely not know how organisms work at all? What they are? That they go through stages? That they have a clear beginning, a definite first stage of their lifecycle, before which they don't exist and after which they have to die in order to stop existing? This is some real elementary school science class stuff. It's not just humans. This is basic basic stuff.
- BugsJustFindMe 1y ago
  > It takes an intervention to stop an embryo from becoming an adult. Taking intervention isn't as useful a selection criterion as you make it out to be. It also takes intervention to stop teenagers from making babies with each other. And all they need is time. They often don't even need nutrition or safety. That teenagers left to their own devices will make babies is a fundamental and incontrovertible truth. It may as well be considered a force of nature. It's the entire history of all of biology from the very first multi-cellular organism until today. And yet modern society usually succeeds in preventing them from doing it because we recognize the harms caused by it. > For any other precursor, something fundamental has to change. This is both arbitrary and covers a lot more than you admit. For a child to become you today it had to change in very fundamental ways, almost exclusively by external social influence. You are not the same as the child. You are dramatically and fundamentally changed. Your ideas are dramatically and fundamentally different. Your feelings are dramatically and fundamentally different. Your behavior is dramatically and fundamentally different. This notion of fundamental change only holds up if you arbitrarily hold onto one particular kind of change while blithely ignoring all the countless rest. > For either of the gametes (the immediate precursors), they have to merge with the other gamete. So? That's not any more fundamental than the fact that external social influences have merged with your frame of mind to change your behaviors, emotions, and views as you've aged. You are as fundamentally changed from the child that became you as the child is from the sperm and egg it came from. You are changing constantly by merging with external influence. Your ideas are as different as ideas can be, your emotions are as different as emotions can be, your behaviors are as different as behaviors can be. You are the culmination of a lot of merging, not alone in a vacuum.