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> The UK may not be perfect but no one’s going to complain if you compare the Prime Minister or the King to a cartoon bear. But if you compare Zionism to anoth

> The UK may not be perfect but no one’s going to complain if you compare the Prime Minister or the King to a cartoon bear. But if you compare Zionism to another eerily similar 20th century europe ism, a lot of people will, indeed, complain.

atemerev 1y ago
Zionism is the notion that the state of Israel has the right to exist. Opposing Zionism is the call to destruction of the entire nation-state, and, therefore, a call to genocide. (Opposing the actions of said state is, of course, a natural right and can be freely expressed by anyone).
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- ben_w 1y ago
  Unfortunately for that meaning of the word — and a few million people stuck in the middle — two completely different groups of racists are both simultaneously coopting it to stir up hatred for their enemies, who are the other group. > (Opposing the actions of said state is, of course, a natural right and can be freely expressed by anyone) Unfortunately, the "soldier mindset" (as opposed to scout mindset) is dominant in this case, and I fear suggesting why would be rejected because of that very mindset. So no, the freedom is not there in practice. "You're with us or against us" kind of thing, but only with the most expansive definition of what counts.
  - atemerev 1y ago
    Well, the soldier mindset and "us vs them" mindset is deadly, and the history is littered with mountains of corpses of people who subscribed to this world view, as well as millions of their innocent collateral victims. Hate is deadly and useless. Israel is a nation that is tightly bound and has the right to exist, as there are millions of people who consider themselves Israeli. Palestine is a nation and has the right to exist, as there are millions of people who consider themselves Palestinians. Zionism is the affirmation of the Israelis to be a nation proper. Palestinian identity is the affirmation of Palestinians to be the nation proper. Both things are OK, even if I will be promptly hated by both groups, I won't give the words meaning beyond what was originally given to them.
    - ben_w 1y ago
      > Both things are OK, even if I will be promptly hated by both groups, Brave, and I respect that position. Myself, I would prefer to carefully phrase things to not get hated. I likely can't be of any help anyway, but I think the chances go down even further if both broader groups hate me equally and think I'm on the opposite team or can't see what the other lot are doing wrong. > I won't give the words meaning beyond what was originally given to them. "Orangeman" is a member of the Orange Order in Northern Ireland, named for the Dutch William of Orange who took over the UK at the beshest of parliament to support protestantism. William got the name from the principality of Orange, which is named after the city of Orange, which is in France and named after the Celtic word for foread or temple. They wear the colour orange, even though the colour is named after the fruit (old English grouped this colour under "red"), the fruit being a corruption somewhere in probably-France of "Norange" (hence modern Spanish "naranja"), and before that Arabic. Back to Dutch Prince William of Orange: The Dutch for the colour is "oranje"; for the fruit is "sinaasappel", literally "Chinese apple", hence the similar (but I'm told distinct species of) fruit with the English name of "mandarin". Oranges are technically a kind of berry, unlike strawberries which are not. The zest of an orange is an important ingredient of the mincemeat used in mince pies, which (despite the name) are generally vegetarian. Words.
- Hikikomori 1y ago
  That's not the part we have a problem with. It's that there was already people living there before and now they're using this supposed right to exist to wipe out the local population. Ironically they don't believe that Palestine has the right to exist. Colonialism has always been bad, Israel is clearly no different.
  - atemerev 1y ago
    "They" are me, I am a religious Zionist Jew. I believe that Palestine has the right to exist, just like Israel. Israel is the land of our ancestors, which was ruined by Romans and then settled through Arab conquests (Arabian colonialism was a thing). This is fine, this was a long time ago. We were there even longer, but it is not the time to compare. If Palestinians consider themselves a nation, they are a nation, just as we are. Neither of us should try to destroy each other.
    - Hikikomori 1y ago
      As Zionists go I think you only disagree on how quickly and blatantly you should perform the genocide.
      - deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
    - stefantalpalaru 1y ago
      [dead]
- dragonwriter 1y ago
  > Zionism is the notion that the state of Israel has the right to exist. No state has a right to exist; people have a right to self-determination, and a state of a particular form, and territorial extent may or may not be an realization of such a right, so even in that minimal framing (which I would say is more the motte Zionists retreat to when challenged than the bailey of the actual substantive meaning of the term in practical use by them), Zionism is a flawed and problematic proposal at best.
  - atemerev 1y ago
    Well, if your logic is pretending to be universal, then it should apply to Palestinian Arabs as well. Why they should have the right to their state and Israeli Jews don't? (Or vice versa)
    - myrmidon 1y ago
      I think there is a big disconnect in this debate, and a lot of it comes from framing and conflicting definitions. I'll try to describe this from my PoV: Zionism, to me, is just jewish-flavored nationalism. To me, the question "has Israel (the state) the right to exist" is almost nonsensical; I don't think that Italy, Germany, France or the US have any inherent "right" to exist, and the same would be true for Israel in my view. The people that a state governs, however, do have an inherent right to fair representation of their interests (in my view), and this is where Israel often falls short. There are a lot of non-jews living within Israels borders, and Israel (as a state) fails those people regularly (and, arguably, by design: it does not really want to protect interests of citizens that deviate from that jwewish national identity). So I think questioning "western logic" with "why should Palestine (the state) have more of a right to exist than Israel?" is unhelpful framing that misses the main point ("citizens have a right to have their interests represented").
      - s1artibartfast 1y ago
        >There are a lot of non-jews living within Israel's borders, and Israel (as a state) fails those people regularly (and, arguably, by design: it does not really want to protect interests of citizens that deviate from that jwewish national identity). I dont think this is well supported, or the source of conflict. The state seems to do a fairly good job of providing for citizens within boarders. Arab Israeli citizens have the right to vote in Israeli elections, run for office, and serve in the Knesset. They make up roughly 1.9 million people (about 20% of Israel's population). You can argue that these people have civic representational differences as minority group, but this is a very different situation than people living Gaza or the west bank, and their representational rights.
- chris12321 1y ago
  No state has the right to exist, that thought terminating cliche makes no sense legally or philosophically. States are recognised by other states, with no legal rights involved. Also claiming that a call for the end of a state is a call for genocide is ludicrous, if that was the case then every revolution in world history would be a genocide.
  - atemerev 1y ago
    Revolution is a change of government, not the end of the state. And the state of Israel is recognized by other states and the UN.
    - chris12321 1y ago
      After German reunification the states of East Germany and West Germany ceased to be. Was that two genocides?
      - atemerev 1y ago
        That was their voluntary decision supported by the population of both states. A closer analogy would have been some proposals to dissolve the German state forever after WW2, and get its parts annexed by other states. But that didn't happen. Not to mention that Nazi Germany was actually doing an actual genocide. But that wasn't sufficient to warrant the same fate for them as a nation.
        HideousKojima 1y ago
        >But that didn't happen. The latter part definitely did. See Konigsberg (now Kaliningrad, a Russian exclave) and all the parts of Germany that were ceded to Poland. And the expulsion of ethnic Germans living in non-German lands across Europe postwar was certainly a form of ethnic cleansing, even if you believe it was justified to remove the justification Germany had for prewar annexations like the Sudetenland.
      - tvier 1y ago
Lio 1y ago
I think if you were sensitive you could still have that conversation. People might very well complain, as is their right, but they’d still allow it if you were sensitive. The problem is that the Jewish community in the UK is relatively small and vulnerable and there is the tendency for such discussion to turn ugly and affect the lives of all British Jews regardless of their thoughts on Zionism. We don’t want you burning Korans outside of mosques and we don’t want you throwing paint at people on their way to temple. I’m not religious but I don’t want either of those situations. There are more effective ways to help those in trouble than starting pub fights.
- lelanthran 1y ago
  > We don’t want you burning Korans outside of mosques and we don’t want you throwing paint at people on their way to temple. Those two things are not the same. The latter is physical assault. The former isn't anything but a statement on faith. > I’m not religious but I don’t want either of those situations. I don't see anything wrong in burning a religious book as a public statement. Why, specifically, do you need that banned?
  - Lio 1y ago
    I kind of agree with you that as a public statement it shouldn't be banned but it's not the burning of the koran, or any book, that should be protected but the where and when of it. I feel similar to how I feel about fans who taunt opposition fans at football matches. Some off colour jokes are funny, even when they're in bad taste. They aren't and shouldn't be banned. You hear a commedian saying them on stage and you'd laugh. Making those same jokes at a football match though has the potential to cause a riot because people's passions are already raised. I'm not talking about normal banter[1] related to the game or the teams but the dark stuff that crosses the line. I'm sure you can google it if you want examples. Where the lines are I'm glad I'm not the one to decide. 1. The crumble based memes are some of the best.
detourdog 1y ago
The comparison is not accurate.

atemerev 1y ago

Zionism is the notion that the state of Israel has the right to exist. Opposing Zionism is the call to destruction of the entire nation-state, and, therefore, a call to genocide. (Opposing the actions of said state is, of course, a natural right and can be freely expressed by anyone).

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
ben_w 1y ago
Unfortunately for that meaning of the word — and a few million people stuck in the middle — two completely different groups of racists are both simultaneously coopting it to stir up hatred for their enemies, who are the other group. > (Opposing the actions of said state is, of course, a natural right and can be freely expressed by anyone) Unfortunately, the "soldier mindset" (as opposed to scout mindset) is dominant in this case, and I fear suggesting why would be rejected because of that very mindset. So no, the freedom is not there in practice. "You're with us or against us" kind of thing, but only with the most expansive definition of what counts.
- atemerev 1y ago
  Well, the soldier mindset and "us vs them" mindset is deadly, and the history is littered with mountains of corpses of people who subscribed to this world view, as well as millions of their innocent collateral victims. Hate is deadly and useless. Israel is a nation that is tightly bound and has the right to exist, as there are millions of people who consider themselves Israeli. Palestine is a nation and has the right to exist, as there are millions of people who consider themselves Palestinians. Zionism is the affirmation of the Israelis to be a nation proper. Palestinian identity is the affirmation of Palestinians to be the nation proper. Both things are OK, even if I will be promptly hated by both groups, I won't give the words meaning beyond what was originally given to them.
  - ben_w 1y ago
    > Both things are OK, even if I will be promptly hated by both groups, Brave, and I respect that position. Myself, I would prefer to carefully phrase things to not get hated. I likely can't be of any help anyway, but I think the chances go down even further if both broader groups hate me equally and think I'm on the opposite team or can't see what the other lot are doing wrong. > I won't give the words meaning beyond what was originally given to them. "Orangeman" is a member of the Orange Order in Northern Ireland, named for the Dutch William of Orange who took over the UK at the beshest of parliament to support protestantism. William got the name from the principality of Orange, which is named after the city of Orange, which is in France and named after the Celtic word for foread or temple. They wear the colour orange, even though the colour is named after the fruit (old English grouped this colour under "red"), the fruit being a corruption somewhere in probably-France of "Norange" (hence modern Spanish "naranja"), and before that Arabic. Back to Dutch Prince William of Orange: The Dutch for the colour is "oranje"; for the fruit is "sinaasappel", literally "Chinese apple", hence the similar (but I'm told distinct species of) fruit with the English name of "mandarin". Oranges are technically a kind of berry, unlike strawberries which are not. The zest of an orange is an important ingredient of the mincemeat used in mince pies, which (despite the name) are generally vegetarian. Words.
Hikikomori 1y ago
That's not the part we have a problem with. It's that there was already people living there before and now they're using this supposed right to exist to wipe out the local population. Ironically they don't believe that Palestine has the right to exist. Colonialism has always been bad, Israel is clearly no different.
- atemerev 1y ago
  "They" are me, I am a religious Zionist Jew. I believe that Palestine has the right to exist, just like Israel. Israel is the land of our ancestors, which was ruined by Romans and then settled through Arab conquests (Arabian colonialism was a thing). This is fine, this was a long time ago. We were there even longer, but it is not the time to compare. If Palestinians consider themselves a nation, they are a nation, just as we are. Neither of us should try to destroy each other.
  - Hikikomori 1y ago
    As Zionists go I think you only disagree on how quickly and blatantly you should perform the genocide.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
  - stefantalpalaru 1y ago
    [dead]
dragonwriter 1y ago
> Zionism is the notion that the state of Israel has the right to exist. No state has a right to exist; people have a right to self-determination, and a state of a particular form, and territorial extent may or may not be an realization of such a right, so even in that minimal framing (which I would say is more the motte Zionists retreat to when challenged than the bailey of the actual substantive meaning of the term in practical use by them), Zionism is a flawed and problematic proposal at best.
- atemerev 1y ago
  Well, if your logic is pretending to be universal, then it should apply to Palestinian Arabs as well. Why they should have the right to their state and Israeli Jews don't? (Or vice versa)
  - myrmidon 1y ago
    I think there is a big disconnect in this debate, and a lot of it comes from framing and conflicting definitions. I'll try to describe this from my PoV: Zionism, to me, is just jewish-flavored nationalism. To me, the question "has Israel (the state) the right to exist" is almost nonsensical; I don't think that Italy, Germany, France or the US have any inherent "right" to exist, and the same would be true for Israel in my view. The people that a state governs, however, do have an inherent right to fair representation of their interests (in my view), and this is where Israel often falls short. There are a lot of non-jews living within Israels borders, and Israel (as a state) fails those people regularly (and, arguably, by design: it does not really want to protect interests of citizens that deviate from that jwewish national identity). So I think questioning "western logic" with "why should Palestine (the state) have more of a right to exist than Israel?" is unhelpful framing that misses the main point ("citizens have a right to have their interests represented").
    - s1artibartfast 1y ago
      >There are a lot of non-jews living within Israel's borders, and Israel (as a state) fails those people regularly (and, arguably, by design: it does not really want to protect interests of citizens that deviate from that jwewish national identity). I dont think this is well supported, or the source of conflict. The state seems to do a fairly good job of providing for citizens within boarders. Arab Israeli citizens have the right to vote in Israeli elections, run for office, and serve in the Knesset. They make up roughly 1.9 million people (about 20% of Israel's population). You can argue that these people have civic representational differences as minority group, but this is a very different situation than people living Gaza or the west bank, and their representational rights.
chris12321 1y ago
No state has the right to exist, that thought terminating cliche makes no sense legally or philosophically. States are recognised by other states, with no legal rights involved. Also claiming that a call for the end of a state is a call for genocide is ludicrous, if that was the case then every revolution in world history would be a genocide.
- atemerev 1y ago
  Revolution is a change of government, not the end of the state. And the state of Israel is recognized by other states and the UN.
  - chris12321 1y ago
    After German reunification the states of East Germany and West Germany ceased to be. Was that two genocides?
    - atemerev 1y ago
      That was their voluntary decision supported by the population of both states. A closer analogy would have been some proposals to dissolve the German state forever after WW2, and get its parts annexed by other states. But that didn't happen. Not to mention that Nazi Germany was actually doing an actual genocide. But that wasn't sufficient to warrant the same fate for them as a nation.
      - HideousKojima 1y ago
        >But that didn't happen. The latter part definitely did. See Konigsberg (now Kaliningrad, a Russian exclave) and all the parts of Germany that were ceded to Poland. And the expulsion of ethnic Germans living in non-German lands across Europe postwar was certainly a form of ethnic cleansing, even if you believe it was justified to remove the justification Germany had for prewar annexations like the Sudetenland.
    - tvier 1y ago

Lio 1y ago

I think if you were sensitive you could still have that conversation. People might very well complain, as is their right, but they’d still allow it if you were sensitive. The problem is that the Jewish community in the UK is relatively small and vulnerable and there is the tendency for such discussion to turn ugly and affect the lives of all British Jews regardless of their thoughts on Zionism. We don’t want you burning Korans outside of mosques and we don’t want you throwing paint at people on their way to temple. I’m not religious but I don’t want either of those situations. There are more effective ways to help those in trouble than starting pub fights.

lelanthran 1y ago
> We don’t want you burning Korans outside of mosques and we don’t want you throwing paint at people on their way to temple. Those two things are not the same. The latter is physical assault. The former isn't anything but a statement on faith. > I’m not religious but I don’t want either of those situations. I don't see anything wrong in burning a religious book as a public statement. Why, specifically, do you need that banned?
- Lio 1y ago
  I kind of agree with you that as a public statement it shouldn't be banned but it's not the burning of the koran, or any book, that should be protected but the where and when of it. I feel similar to how I feel about fans who taunt opposition fans at football matches. Some off colour jokes are funny, even when they're in bad taste. They aren't and shouldn't be banned. You hear a commedian saying them on stage and you'd laugh. Making those same jokes at a football match though has the potential to cause a riot because people's passions are already raised. I'm not talking about normal banter[1] related to the game or the teams but the dark stuff that crosses the line. I'm sure you can google it if you want examples. Where the lines are I'm glad I'm not the one to decide. 1. The crumble based memes are some of the best.

detourdog 1y ago

The comparison is not accurate.