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man does this miss the mark. most of the uber wealthy pay less than middle class. when you have money, you can afford to do things with that money that avoids p

man does this miss the mark. most of the uber wealthy pay less than middle class. when you have money, you can afford to do things with that money that avoids paying taxes for your full value.

kgwgk 1y ago
> The top 1 percent of taxpayers (AGI [Adjusted Gross Income] of $663,164 and above) paid the highest average income tax rate of 26.1 percent—seven times the rate faced by the bottom half of taxpayers. > In all, the top 1 percent of taxpayers accounted for more income taxes paid than the bottom 90 percent combined. The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid $864 billion in income taxes while the bottom 90 percent paid $599 billion. https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/federal/latest-federal-income-tax-data-2025/ https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/federal/latest-federal-in...
- demosthanos 1y ago
  The first paragraph is the nominal tax rate and the claim that OP is offering is based on the idea that the ultra wealthy find ways to avoid that tax rate and end up paying less than middle class income earners as a percentage of their income. I believe that this is true. The second paragraph is the actually relevant stat, though: for all that they avoid the nominal tax rate, they still pay the majority of all taxes.
  - kgwgk 1y ago
    > The first paragraph is the nominal tax rate No, that's the effective tax rate for the top 1% in aggregate: Adjusted gross income: $3,309,589,000,000 Tax paid: $863,631,000,000
    - demosthanos 1y ago
      Oh, my bad! You're right.
- jjani 1y ago
  "The top 1 percent of tax payers pays the most tax" is a tautology. GP talked about the uber wealthy.
  - kgwgk 1y ago
    > The top 1 percent of tax payers pays the most tax" is a tautology. What does "the most tax" mean? If you mean "most of the tax" how is that a tautology? If everyone paid $1 the top 1 percent would pay 1% of the total - which is far from "most". Also, the language can be ambiguous in some places but it says "by Income Group" so the top 1 percent of tax payers probably refers actually to the top 1 percent of (adjusted) earners. > GP talked about the uber wealthy. And GGP talked about how "a minority of taxpayers finance the government". 5% is a minority paying 61% of the taxes. 25% is a minority paying 87% of the taxes.
    - jjani 1y ago
      Sure, replace "the most tax" with "the highest tax rate", as that was your sentence. > And GGP talked about how "a minority of taxpayers finance the government". Your reply was to GP, and it wasn't one pointing that out.
      - kgwgk 1y ago
        GP says that the (uber)rich pay a lower tax rate than the middle class so he wouldn't necessarily agree that the top earners pay the highest tax rate. (And actually GP would only make sense at all as a reply to GGP if he meant lower tax amount in dollars - not just a lower tax rate.)
        dragonwriter 1y ago
        > GP says that the (uber)rich pay a lower tax rate than the middle class so he wouldn't necessarily agree that the top earners pay the highest tax rate. The uber-rich aren't the top earners. Capital holdings and labor income aren't the same thing.
- dragonwriter 1y ago
  The top 1% of tacpayers by AGI isn't the uber-wealthy (major capitalists), it is mostly high-income workers, who have lots of regular income.
ahmeneeroe-v2 1y ago
>most of the uber wealthy pay less than middle class Incredibly wrong. You're talking about paying "as a percentage of their income/wealth"[1], whereas the GP is talking about actual dollars into the treasury. The other response to you has the stats. [1]and you might not even be right about that
michaelt 1y ago
Both things can be true at the same time. Obviously, it's widely reported that the very richest of the rich pay very little tax. But according to table C-1 of [1] the richest 20% of US households have an average income of $418,100 and, after taxes and benefits, contribute $101,300 to the treasury. The middle 20% of households have an income of $86,500 and overall contribute $200 to the treasury. And the poorest 20% of households have an income of $22,500 and receive $26,200 from the treasury. Which makes sense when you think about it - the garbage truck visits the household on $40k just as often as it visits the household on $400k. Taxes are progressive, benefits are (mostly) equal. So even though the richest 0.1% of people might be dodging tax entirely, the richest ~30% are the ones financing the government. [1] https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/2024-09/60341-income.pdf https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/2024-09/60341-income.pdf

man does this miss the mark. most of the uber wealthy pay less than middle class. when you have money, you can afford to do things with that money that avoids paying taxes for your full value.

kgwgk 1y ago

> The top 1 percent of taxpayers (AGI [Adjusted Gross Income] of $663,164 and above) paid the highest average income tax rate of 26.1 percent—seven times the rate faced by the bottom half of taxpayers. > In all, the top 1 percent of taxpayers accounted for more income taxes paid than the bottom 90 percent combined. The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid $864 billion in income taxes while the bottom 90 percent paid $599 billion. https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/federal/latest-federal-income-tax-data-2025/ https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/federal/latest-federal-in...

demosthanos 1y ago
The first paragraph is the nominal tax rate and the claim that OP is offering is based on the idea that the ultra wealthy find ways to avoid that tax rate and end up paying less than middle class income earners as a percentage of their income. I believe that this is true. The second paragraph is the actually relevant stat, though: for all that they avoid the nominal tax rate, they still pay the majority of all taxes.
- kgwgk 1y ago
  > The first paragraph is the nominal tax rate No, that's the effective tax rate for the top 1% in aggregate: Adjusted gross income: $3,309,589,000,000 Tax paid: $863,631,000,000
  - demosthanos 1y ago
    Oh, my bad! You're right.
jjani 1y ago
"The top 1 percent of tax payers pays the most tax" is a tautology. GP talked about the uber wealthy.
- kgwgk 1y ago
  > The top 1 percent of tax payers pays the most tax" is a tautology. What does "the most tax" mean? If you mean "most of the tax" how is that a tautology? If everyone paid $1 the top 1 percent would pay 1% of the total - which is far from "most". Also, the language can be ambiguous in some places but it says "by Income Group" so the top 1 percent of tax payers probably refers actually to the top 1 percent of (adjusted) earners. > GP talked about the uber wealthy. And GGP talked about how "a minority of taxpayers finance the government". 5% is a minority paying 61% of the taxes. 25% is a minority paying 87% of the taxes.
  - jjani 1y ago
    Sure, replace "the most tax" with "the highest tax rate", as that was your sentence. > And GGP talked about how "a minority of taxpayers finance the government". Your reply was to GP, and it wasn't one pointing that out.
    - kgwgk 1y ago
      GP says that the (uber)rich pay a lower tax rate than the middle class so he wouldn't necessarily agree that the top earners pay the highest tax rate. (And actually GP would only make sense at all as a reply to GGP if he meant lower tax amount in dollars - not just a lower tax rate.)
      - dragonwriter 1y ago
        > GP says that the (uber)rich pay a lower tax rate than the middle class so he wouldn't necessarily agree that the top earners pay the highest tax rate. The uber-rich aren't the top earners. Capital holdings and labor income aren't the same thing.
dragonwriter 1y ago
The top 1% of tacpayers by AGI isn't the uber-wealthy (major capitalists), it is mostly high-income workers, who have lots of regular income.

ahmeneeroe-v2 1y ago

>most of the uber wealthy pay less than middle class Incredibly wrong. You're talking about paying "as a percentage of their income/wealth"[1], whereas the GP is talking about actual dollars into the treasury. The other response to you has the stats. [1]and you might not even be right about that

michaelt 1y ago

Both things can be true at the same time. Obviously, it's widely reported that the very richest of the rich pay very little tax. But according to table C-1 of [1] the richest 20% of US households have an average income of $418,100 and, after taxes and benefits, contribute $101,300 to the treasury. The middle 20% of households have an income of $86,500 and overall contribute $200 to the treasury. And the poorest 20% of households have an income of $22,500 and receive $26,200 from the treasury. Which makes sense when you think about it - the garbage truck visits the household on $40k just as often as it visits the household on $400k. Taxes are progressive, benefits are (mostly) equal. So even though the richest 0.1% of people might be dodging tax entirely, the richest ~30% are the ones financing the government. [1] https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/2024-09/60341-income.pdf https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/2024-09/60341-income.pdf