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>Everything I've heard about it was that it was pressure from contractors because they didn't like training or finding Ada talent. Do you think the auto indust

>Everything I've heard about it was that it was pressure from contractors because they didn't like training or finding Ada talent. Do you think the auto industry will have a easier time finding Ada talent at their pay rates? Or that talent will want to specialize into Ada just to pigeonhole themselves into the Automotive jobs market?

cmrdporcupine 1y ago
As a Rust + C++ developer (in medical right now, and vehicle before that) I see no reason why I couldn't also pick up Ada as one of many skill sets. I have an Ada95 manual on my bookshelf from years ago that I bought out of curiosity -- frankly for senior level talent the language syntax is the easiest thing to pick up it's the intricacies of an existing code base and business domain that is the hard part of joining a new project and that is generally language independent. Arguably picking up Rust -- with its frankly exotic value passing and ownership semantics -- is much harder than learning Ada.
- FirmwareBurner 1y ago
  > I see no reason why I couldn't also pick up Ada as one of many skill sets Low wages and the negative resume drive development might be reasons. Believe it or not, pigeon holing yourself in niche/uncool tech for years, can and will negatively impact your future hiring prospects at good jobs, since hiring in tech is broken and HR selects resumes on buzzwords and on your "last X years of experience in Y framework".
seabird 1y ago
I'm near Detroit which has a huge amount of auto industry, and engineering pay is good across pretty much all disciplines. It'll pay for a happy life and then some as long as relentless title climbing and job hopping isn't your definition of happiness. Ada is not some exotic thing that requites SF comp. If it's such a major adjustment coming from C/C++ that it's actually causing you trouble, you have other problems. It's comical bringing up the automotive industry considering that its responsible for AUTOSAR, which is simultaneously widely hated by engineers and completely useless outside the industry.
- FirmwareBurner 1y ago
  >I'm near Detroit which has a huge amount of auto industry, and engineering pay is good across pretty much all disciplines. I dunno about Detroit since I don't live there, but in Europe the auto industry is on a major downturn with cost cutting, layoffs and hiring freezes. Good luck getting hired anywhere now if you're laid off from the Auto industry and your specialty is some niche stuff only used in the auto industry. Also, IIRC, the company I worked for recently laid off 35% staff at their Auburn Hills office overnight so I doubt the situation around Detroit is as rosy as you make it seem. > If it's such a major adjustment coming from C/C++ that it's actually causing you trouble, you have other problems. Like I said, there should be no problem for a (skilled) programmer to adjust from C++ to Ada or vice versa, the problem is convincing HR to hire you on that premise. Ask me how I know (see my username). Gone are the days of the SW generalists programmer, who would be hired with the expectation to learn on the job the new language used at that job, companies now are only looking for people with X on-the-job YoE on that programming language or framework, not self taught people coming from other programing languages. This is not something you can control, it's the hiring market that's broken, so you can only adapt to it by not pigeonholing yourself in things that might be a career dead-end. >It's comical bringing up the automotive industry considering that its responsible for AUTOSAR AUTOSAR did what it was supposed to do: be a vendor lock in program for German bureaucratic companies and job security program for workers in that industry. That's what Germany and German companies do best: create massive amounts of bureaucracy requirements as a moat for an industry they have a foothold in, then sell you the solution. Why do you think SAP is also German?
  - seabird 1y ago
    Everywhere is in a downturn. ZIRP is over, this isn't limited to automotive. Just because you're not going to be hired within a few days of looking doesn't mean that everything is doom and gloom. Automotive software engineers aren't working for poverty wages. You don't outright lose years of experience writing C and C++ just because you learned Ada. You're not going to leave a decade of C experience off your resume just because it wasn't the primary language in your last position. Ada isn't for frontend web development where new "technology" gets chewed up and spat out every year or two. It shines in firmware. There's plenty of vendors that haven't moved past C99. Chalking up a hypothetical appreciable Ada marketshare in automotive as "niche stuff only used in the auto industry" doesn't make sense in that it sees plenty of use in aerospace, defense, and medical. The point of me bringing up AUTOSAR is that Ada is nowhere close to the pigeonhole scenario that AUTOSAR is. In the world where you only have Ada experience, and you're not a bad programmer, but HR departments are giving you grief, just lie on your resume. Fuck em. We both know that it's not a major adjustment, so brush up on details before you're interviewed and if they asked what you used C/C++ just say you're not at liberty to speak about it. Nobody is going to hit you with anything along the lines of whether or not it's true that monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.

cmrdporcupine 1y ago

As a Rust + C++ developer (in medical right now, and vehicle before that) I see no reason why I couldn't also pick up Ada as one of many skill sets. I have an Ada95 manual on my bookshelf from years ago that I bought out of curiosity -- frankly for senior level talent the language syntax is the easiest thing to pick up it's the intricacies of an existing code base and business domain that is the hard part of joining a new project and that is generally language independent. Arguably picking up Rust -- with its frankly exotic value passing and ownership semantics -- is much harder than learning Ada.

FirmwareBurner 1y ago
> I see no reason why I couldn't also pick up Ada as one of many skill sets Low wages and the negative resume drive development might be reasons. Believe it or not, pigeon holing yourself in niche/uncool tech for years, can and will negatively impact your future hiring prospects at good jobs, since hiring in tech is broken and HR selects resumes on buzzwords and on your "last X years of experience in Y framework".

seabird 1y ago

I'm near Detroit which has a huge amount of auto industry, and engineering pay is good across pretty much all disciplines. It'll pay for a happy life and then some as long as relentless title climbing and job hopping isn't your definition of happiness. Ada is not some exotic thing that requites SF comp. If it's such a major adjustment coming from C/C++ that it's actually causing you trouble, you have other problems. It's comical bringing up the automotive industry considering that its responsible for AUTOSAR, which is simultaneously widely hated by engineers and completely useless outside the industry.

FirmwareBurner 1y ago
>I'm near Detroit which has a huge amount of auto industry, and engineering pay is good across pretty much all disciplines. I dunno about Detroit since I don't live there, but in Europe the auto industry is on a major downturn with cost cutting, layoffs and hiring freezes. Good luck getting hired anywhere now if you're laid off from the Auto industry and your specialty is some niche stuff only used in the auto industry. Also, IIRC, the company I worked for recently laid off 35% staff at their Auburn Hills office overnight so I doubt the situation around Detroit is as rosy as you make it seem. > If it's such a major adjustment coming from C/C++ that it's actually causing you trouble, you have other problems. Like I said, there should be no problem for a (skilled) programmer to adjust from C++ to Ada or vice versa, the problem is convincing HR to hire you on that premise. Ask me how I know (see my username). Gone are the days of the SW generalists programmer, who would be hired with the expectation to learn on the job the new language used at that job, companies now are only looking for people with X on-the-job YoE on that programming language or framework, not self taught people coming from other programing languages. This is not something you can control, it's the hiring market that's broken, so you can only adapt to it by not pigeonholing yourself in things that might be a career dead-end. >It's comical bringing up the automotive industry considering that its responsible for AUTOSAR AUTOSAR did what it was supposed to do: be a vendor lock in program for German bureaucratic companies and job security program for workers in that industry. That's what Germany and German companies do best: create massive amounts of bureaucracy requirements as a moat for an industry they have a foothold in, then sell you the solution. Why do you think SAP is also German?
- seabird 1y ago
  Everywhere is in a downturn. ZIRP is over, this isn't limited to automotive. Just because you're not going to be hired within a few days of looking doesn't mean that everything is doom and gloom. Automotive software engineers aren't working for poverty wages. You don't outright lose years of experience writing C and C++ just because you learned Ada. You're not going to leave a decade of C experience off your resume just because it wasn't the primary language in your last position. Ada isn't for frontend web development where new "technology" gets chewed up and spat out every year or two. It shines in firmware. There's plenty of vendors that haven't moved past C99. Chalking up a hypothetical appreciable Ada marketshare in automotive as "niche stuff only used in the auto industry" doesn't make sense in that it sees plenty of use in aerospace, defense, and medical. The point of me bringing up AUTOSAR is that Ada is nowhere close to the pigeonhole scenario that AUTOSAR is. In the world where you only have Ada experience, and you're not a bad programmer, but HR departments are giving you grief, just lie on your resume. Fuck em. We both know that it's not a major adjustment, so brush up on details before you're interviewed and if they asked what you used C/C++ just say you're not at liberty to speak about it. Nobody is going to hit you with anything along the lines of whether or not it's true that monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.