5 ms·

How is this ironic?

nine_k 1y ago
Most prominent racist movements of last few centuries considered Jewish people undesirable, all the way to the idea of complete extermination.
- LAC-Tech 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - edanm 1y ago
    > A lot of nationalist consider a lot of other races undesirable. The Israeli mainstream right is fairly open about their attitudes to gentiles, whether arab muslim, arab christians, or the disposable lives of US servicemen they wish to fight wars on their behalf. That's not true and kind of outrageous - you're basically saying "the majority of Israelis are racist". The Israeli mainstream right has a lot of views I disagree with, but they're directed at people who are (in their minds at least) Israel's enemies. It's not because they are Arabs. And they certainly don't consider US servicemen disposable, and certainly don't have a bad opinion of all "gentiles". (Ironically, the idea that Jews secretly think everyone else should be subservient to them and are therefore trying to and/or actually ruling the world, is itself a classic antisemitic line of thinking.)
    - queenkjuul 1y ago
      Israeli officials don't even try to hide their racism towards Arabs. They are unquestionably motivated by racism, and will happily tell you so themselves. Obviously not all Israelis are right wing racists but the ones running the government absolutely are.
      - edanm 1y ago
        There are some Israeli officials who are extremists and talk that way, but they represent a right-wing extreme bloc of Israeli voters. These officials have a lot of power and influence right now for a variety of reasons. But this is by no means true of the majority of Israeli officials, nor of the public.
        queenkjuul 1y ago
        I'm sorry but the majority party in the Israeli government is unquestionably motivated by racism. I don't really care about the specific number of Israeli officials nationwide and their relative levels of personal racist views. The Israeli government is unabashedly engaged in a racially motivated genocide, and the officials carrying it out are in no way apologetic about their motivations. I never said anything about the majority of the Israeli public, thanks for noticing.
        tim333 1y ago
        They are attacking Hamas who are dedicated in their charter to destroying Israel as a state. Hamas is not a race.
        mandmandam 1y ago
        Why wouldn't you do the least bit of fact-checking before making such an incorrect assertion? > Over two-thirds of Israeli teens believe Arabs to be less intelligent, uncultured and violent. Over a third of Israeli teens fear Arabs all together > 50% of Israelis taking part said they would not live in the same building as Arabs, will not befriend, or let their children befriend Arabs and would not let Arabs into their homes > Another 2007 report, by the Center Against Racism, also found hostility against Arabs was on the rise. Among its findings, it reported that 75% of Israeli Jews do not approve of Arabs and Jews sharing apartment buildings; that over half of Jews would not want to have an Arab boss and that marrying an Arab amounts to "national treason"; and that 55% of the sample thought Arabs should be kept separate from Jews in entertainment sites. Half wanted the Israeli government to encourage Israeli Arabs to emigrate. About 40% believed Arab citizens should have their voting rights removed Etc, etc. Many more examples can be found at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Israel
    - drcongo 1y ago
      Yes, it's outrageous to suggest it's a majority of Israelis, when polling tells us that only 47% of Israeli nationals want to kill every single man, woman, and child in Gaza. That's nowhere near a majority. Mind you, 82% of full citizens of Israel want to expel Palestinians from Gaza. That's a majority. https://geopoliticaleconomy.com/2025/05/30/poll-israelis-expel-palestinians-gaza-genocide/ https://geopoliticaleconomy.com/2025/05/30/poll-israelis-exp...
  - queenkjuul 1y ago
    Please stop conflating the Israeli government with Jewish people in general
    - LAC-Tech 1y ago
      I don't think that I've done that. The original assertion was that it would be somehow "ironic" for a jewish person to have ethnocentric/supremacist/nationalist views. I pointed out that it definitely existed in that group.
      - the_af 1y ago
        > Jewish people have no moral high ground here. You did say "Jewish people" instead of "many Israelis". This is not the same. I'm of Jewish heritage and I strongly disagree with Israel's foreign policy and treatment of Palestinians. Going back to your original question, it's ironic that a Jewish person is "committed to race science" (to quote the original comment) because "race science" was used by the nazis to justify the Holocaust; one would think Jewish people would be particularly wary of anyone using "race science" as an argument for anything. You seem to imply it's not ironic because of Israeli treatment of Gaza and Palestinians in general, but consider this: that's also ironic, for the same reason.
        LAC-Tech 1y ago
        > You did say "Jewish people" instead of "many Israelis". This is not the same. I never said it was the same. I pointed out an instance of bigotry done by jews. And so I argue that it's not at all "ironic" for a person of jewish descent to (allegedly) think bigoted things. They have no moral high ground, and neither does any other race (however one chooses to define that). As to the rest, I suppose we have different definitions of ironic. I don't find it ironic for members of one group to target members of another group with violence, despite once having been the targets of violence themselves. History will tell you this is the norm.
        the_af 1y ago
NickC25 1y ago
A guy who says that races shouldn't mix, that diversity is bad, etc... happens to be part of a group that historically has been marginalized to some degree nearly every time it tries to integrate itself into a larger society. Sometimes, that same group's not just been marginalized by political word, but by real physical violence. A lot of the "real Americans" in flyover country who rail about "coastal elites" do not like jewish people. It's fucked up and deplorable, but it's fact. Here you have Yarvin, who is a jewish dude who grew up between 2 coastal liberal environments (SF and NYC). He's trying to pander to the people who count on those "real americans" for votes. EDIT: History has shown us that it often doesn't end well for these types of people. "Oh I'm one of the good ones, they won't come after me" usually lasts until the last of the low-hanging fruit is picked. Again, a modern tech-bro Clayton Bigsby. (Chapelle's show reference for those who don't know)
- rchaud 1y ago
  A lot of these flyover country bigots you speak of have no clue who is part of the Jewish faith and who is not. Most American Jews do not have accents or wear religious garb that would make them stand out, as may have been the case in the world portrayed in Portnoy's Dilemma based in 1920s New York City. Post-WWII, many of those that immigrated to the United States are of European heritage (Polish, Italian, Ukrainian, Russian). In fact, there is a long tradition of efforts (pre-WWII) made by American Jews to force immigrants to hide their Jewish roots and cultural traditions to "help" them avoid the kind of discrimination faced by other European groups (Irish, Italians) by the majority culture. There is an excellent article delving into the history of Jewish perceptions in the US in the magazine Jewish Currents: https://jewishcurrents.org/our-white-supremacy-problem https://jewishcurrents.org/our-white-supremacy-problem
  - NickC25 1y ago
    >A lot of these flyover country bigots you speak of have no clue who is part of the Jewish faith and who is not A good indicator can usually be their last name, especially if they are of German origin. > wear religious garb that would make them stand out Ever been to Brooklyn? How about Miami Beach? I'm from close to one of those places, and live in the other - and see Jewish people choosing to dress in religious garb every day. The more religious one gets (goes for Islam too), the more obvious it is to a passerby.

How is this ironic?

Most prominent racist movements of last few centuries considered Jewish people undesirable, all the way to the idea of complete extermination.

LAC-Tech 1y ago
[flagged]
- edanm 1y ago
  > A lot of nationalist consider a lot of other races undesirable. The Israeli mainstream right is fairly open about their attitudes to gentiles, whether arab muslim, arab christians, or the disposable lives of US servicemen they wish to fight wars on their behalf. That's not true and kind of outrageous - you're basically saying "the majority of Israelis are racist". The Israeli mainstream right has a lot of views I disagree with, but they're directed at people who are (in their minds at least) Israel's enemies. It's not because they are Arabs. And they certainly don't consider US servicemen disposable, and certainly don't have a bad opinion of all "gentiles". (Ironically, the idea that Jews secretly think everyone else should be subservient to them and are therefore trying to and/or actually ruling the world, is itself a classic antisemitic line of thinking.)
  - queenkjuul 1y ago
    Israeli officials don't even try to hide their racism towards Arabs. They are unquestionably motivated by racism, and will happily tell you so themselves. Obviously not all Israelis are right wing racists but the ones running the government absolutely are.
    - edanm 1y ago
      There are some Israeli officials who are extremists and talk that way, but they represent a right-wing extreme bloc of Israeli voters. These officials have a lot of power and influence right now for a variety of reasons. But this is by no means true of the majority of Israeli officials, nor of the public.
      - queenkjuul 1y ago
        I'm sorry but the majority party in the Israeli government is unquestionably motivated by racism. I don't really care about the specific number of Israeli officials nationwide and their relative levels of personal racist views. The Israeli government is unabashedly engaged in a racially motivated genocide, and the officials carrying it out are in no way apologetic about their motivations. I never said anything about the majority of the Israeli public, thanks for noticing.
        tim333 1y ago
        They are attacking Hamas who are dedicated in their charter to destroying Israel as a state. Hamas is not a race.
        mandmandam 1y ago
        Why wouldn't you do the least bit of fact-checking before making such an incorrect assertion? > Over two-thirds of Israeli teens believe Arabs to be less intelligent, uncultured and violent. Over a third of Israeli teens fear Arabs all together > 50% of Israelis taking part said they would not live in the same building as Arabs, will not befriend, or let their children befriend Arabs and would not let Arabs into their homes > Another 2007 report, by the Center Against Racism, also found hostility against Arabs was on the rise. Among its findings, it reported that 75% of Israeli Jews do not approve of Arabs and Jews sharing apartment buildings; that over half of Jews would not want to have an Arab boss and that marrying an Arab amounts to "national treason"; and that 55% of the sample thought Arabs should be kept separate from Jews in entertainment sites. Half wanted the Israeli government to encourage Israeli Arabs to emigrate. About 40% believed Arab citizens should have their voting rights removed Etc, etc. Many more examples can be found at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Israel
  - drcongo 1y ago
    Yes, it's outrageous to suggest it's a majority of Israelis, when polling tells us that only 47% of Israeli nationals want to kill every single man, woman, and child in Gaza. That's nowhere near a majority. Mind you, 82% of full citizens of Israel want to expel Palestinians from Gaza. That's a majority. https://geopoliticaleconomy.com/2025/05/30/poll-israelis-expel-palestinians-gaza-genocide/ https://geopoliticaleconomy.com/2025/05/30/poll-israelis-exp...
- queenkjuul 1y ago
  Please stop conflating the Israeli government with Jewish people in general
  - LAC-Tech 1y ago
    I don't think that I've done that. The original assertion was that it would be somehow "ironic" for a jewish person to have ethnocentric/supremacist/nationalist views. I pointed out that it definitely existed in that group.
    - the_af 1y ago
      > Jewish people have no moral high ground here. You did say "Jewish people" instead of "many Israelis". This is not the same. I'm of Jewish heritage and I strongly disagree with Israel's foreign policy and treatment of Palestinians. Going back to your original question, it's ironic that a Jewish person is "committed to race science" (to quote the original comment) because "race science" was used by the nazis to justify the Holocaust; one would think Jewish people would be particularly wary of anyone using "race science" as an argument for anything. You seem to imply it's not ironic because of Israeli treatment of Gaza and Palestinians in general, but consider this: that's also ironic, for the same reason.
      - LAC-Tech 1y ago
        > You did say "Jewish people" instead of "many Israelis". This is not the same. I never said it was the same. I pointed out an instance of bigotry done by jews. And so I argue that it's not at all "ironic" for a person of jewish descent to (allegedly) think bigoted things. They have no moral high ground, and neither does any other race (however one chooses to define that). As to the rest, I suppose we have different definitions of ironic. I don't find it ironic for members of one group to target members of another group with violence, despite once having been the targets of violence themselves. History will tell you this is the norm.
        the_af 1y ago

NickC25 1y ago

A guy who says that races shouldn't mix, that diversity is bad, etc... happens to be part of a group that historically has been marginalized to some degree nearly every time it tries to integrate itself into a larger society. Sometimes, that same group's not just been marginalized by political word, but by real physical violence. A lot of the "real Americans" in flyover country who rail about "coastal elites" do not like jewish people. It's fucked up and deplorable, but it's fact. Here you have Yarvin, who is a jewish dude who grew up between 2 coastal liberal environments (SF and NYC). He's trying to pander to the people who count on those "real americans" for votes. EDIT: History has shown us that it often doesn't end well for these types of people. "Oh I'm one of the good ones, they won't come after me" usually lasts until the last of the low-hanging fruit is picked. Again, a modern tech-bro Clayton Bigsby. (Chapelle's show reference for those who don't know)

rchaud 1y ago
A lot of these flyover country bigots you speak of have no clue who is part of the Jewish faith and who is not. Most American Jews do not have accents or wear religious garb that would make them stand out, as may have been the case in the world portrayed in Portnoy's Dilemma based in 1920s New York City. Post-WWII, many of those that immigrated to the United States are of European heritage (Polish, Italian, Ukrainian, Russian). In fact, there is a long tradition of efforts (pre-WWII) made by American Jews to force immigrants to hide their Jewish roots and cultural traditions to "help" them avoid the kind of discrimination faced by other European groups (Irish, Italians) by the majority culture. There is an excellent article delving into the history of Jewish perceptions in the US in the magazine Jewish Currents: https://jewishcurrents.org/our-white-supremacy-problem https://jewishcurrents.org/our-white-supremacy-problem
- NickC25 1y ago
  >A lot of these flyover country bigots you speak of have no clue who is part of the Jewish faith and who is not A good indicator can usually be their last name, especially if they are of German origin. > wear religious garb that would make them stand out Ever been to Brooklyn? How about Miami Beach? I'm from close to one of those places, and live in the other - and see Jewish people choosing to dress in religious garb every day. The more religious one gets (goes for Islam too), the more obvious it is to a passerby.