4 ms·

There is no such thing as "prompt engineering". Since when the ability to write proper and meaningful sentences became engineering? This is even worse than "so

by bsoles 1y ago

There is no such thing as "prompt engineering". Since when the ability to write proper and meaningful sentences became engineering? This is even worse than "software engineering". The unfortunate thing is that there will probably be job postings for such things and people will call themselves prompt engineers for their extraordinary abilities for writing sentences.

yowlingcat 1y ago
I would caution against thinking it's impossible even if it's not something you've personally experienced. Prompt engineering is necessary (but not sufficient) to creating high leverage outcomes from LLMs when solving complex problems. Without it, the chances of getting to a solution are slim. With it, the chances of getting to 90% of a solution and needing to fine tune the last mile are a lot higher but still not guaranteed. Maybe the phrase "prompt engineering" is bad and it really should be called "prompt crafting" because there is more an element of craft, taste, and judgment than there is durable, repeatable principles which are universally applicable.
- SrslyJosh 1y ago
  > "high leverage outcomes" You're not talking to managers here, you can use plain english. > Maybe the phrase "prompt engineering" is bad and it really should be called "prompt crafting" because there is more an element of craft, taste, and judgment than there is durable, repeatable principles which are universally applicable. Yes, the biggest problem with the phrase is that "engineering" implies a well-defined process with predicable results (think of designing a bridge), and prompting doesn't check either of those boxes.
  - yowlingcat 1y ago
    My goals are outcomes on the key metrics of the business I run (such as opex, funnel pull-through, time to resolution) that translate the human effort and inputs into significantly more output than previous approaches we were using. That particular quotient (amplification of outputs over inputs) is the definition of leverage, and it is plain english. I don't think it's fair to hand-wave a word with a very specific meaning away as "manager speak" because you're unfamiliar with it. I have been using LLMs very specifically to drive towards those goals, and prompt engineering (or crafting given you dislike the phrase "engineering") is a crucial tool to get to those outcomes. And yes, sometimes that means writing my own code itself to interact with them, template prompts, post process, utilize them in workflows. And so, the more I think about it, the more that I see patterns in how I create prompts (that probably could be automated with the same tools used for content templating) that make it feel somewhere in the middle of engineering and crafting. My guess is that semantic ambiguity makes a lot of folks uncomfortable. If that's engineering, what isn't engineering, and doesn't it dilute engineering? Yet from the other angle, it's absolutely the case that LLM utilization is absolutely becoming a greater and greater part of how cutting edge companies write code, so much so that the "code" that the humans must put effort and intention into writing is just as much prompts as it is the fine tuned artifact created by running the prompt. If the reality of what actually is "code" is itself evolving, it's hard to imagine anything but that what constitutes software engineering must also itself be evolving in a very fundamental way.
NitpickLawyer 1y ago
> Since when the ability to write proper and meaningful sentences became engineering? Since what's proper and meaningful depends on a lot of variables. Testing these, keeping track of them, logging and versioning take it from "vibe prompting" to "prompt engineering" IMO. There are plenty of papers detailing this work. Some things work better than others (do this and this works better than don't do this - pink elephants thing). Structuring is important. Style is important. Order of information is important. Re-stating the problem is important. Then there's quirks with family models. If you're running an API-served model you need internal checks to make sure the new version still behaves well on your prompts. These checks and tests are "prompt engineering". I feel a lot of people take the knee-jerk reaction to the hype and miss critical aspects because they want to dunk on the hype.
- gwervc 1y ago
  It's still very very far from engineering. Like, how long and how much one has to study to get an engineering degree? 5 years over many disciplines. On the other hand, prompt tweaking can be learned in a few days just by experimenting.
  - NitpickLawyer 1y ago
    >the branch of science and technology concerned with the design, building, and use of engines, machines, and structures. Not this one. > (alt) a field of study or activity concerned with modification or development in a particular area. "software engineering" This one ^^^ Too many people seem really triggered by this. I don't know why, but it's weird. It's just a term. It's well understood by now. The first 5 pages on google all state the same thing. Why bicker about something so trivial?
- apwell23 1y ago
  > Some things work better than others That could be said about ordering coffee at local coffee shop. Is there a "barista order engineering" we are all supposed to read? > Re-stating the problem is important. maybe you can show us some examples ?
SchemaLoad 1y ago
AI sloperators are desperate to make it look like they are actually doing something.
wiseowise 1y ago
God, do you get off of word “engineer”? Is it cultural?
- Q9xhm0E5228tjF 1y ago
  Found a prompt "engineer".
liampulles 1y ago
If my local barista were to start calling themselves a coffee engineer, I would treat that as a more credible title.
- hansmayer 1y ago
  Yeah, if this catches on, we may definitely see the title "engineer" go the way of "manager" and "VP" in the last decades...So, yeah, we may start seeing coffee engineers now :D
- gwervc 1y ago
  Mixologist has already replaced bartender.
sach1 1y ago
I agree with yowlingcat's point but I see where you are coming from and also agree with you. The way I see it, it's a bit like putting up a job posting for 'somebody who knows SSH'. While that is a useful skill, it's really not something you can specialize in since it's just a subset within linux/unix/network administration, if that makes sense.
empath75 1y ago
I think prompt engineering is closer to a people management skill than it is to engineering.
mseepgood 1y ago
You don't even have to write proper sentences. "me get error X how fix here code:" usually works.
bicepjai 1y ago
I would argue code is a meaningful sentence. So software writers is more appropriate :) ?
zelias 1y ago
Since modern algorithmic driven brainrot has degraded the ability of the average consumer to read a complete sentence, let alone write one
lowbloodsugar 1y ago
Like lawyers?
- ocimbote 1y ago
  Please be respectful to justice engineers. For the uneducated, law engineers are members of the Congress / Parliament / Bundestag / [add for your own country]
mkfs 1y ago
> The unfortunate thing is that there will probably be job postings for such things I don't think you have to worry about that.
theshrike79 1y ago
Context is king. Let's say you have two teams of contractors. One from your native country (I'm assuming US here), working remotely and one from India, located in India. Would you communicate with both in the exact same manner, you wouldn't adjust your messaging in any way? Of course you would, that's exactly what "prompt engineering" is. The language models are a different and a bit fiddly at the moment, so getting quality output from each requires a specific input. You can try it yourself, ask each of the big free-tier models to write a simple script in a specific language for you, every single one will have a different output. They all have a specific "style" they fall into.

by bsoles 1y ago

yowlingcat 1y ago

I would caution against thinking it's impossible even if it's not something you've personally experienced. Prompt engineering is necessary (but not sufficient) to creating high leverage outcomes from LLMs when solving complex problems. Without it, the chances of getting to a solution are slim. With it, the chances of getting to 90% of a solution and needing to fine tune the last mile are a lot higher but still not guaranteed. Maybe the phrase "prompt engineering" is bad and it really should be called "prompt crafting" because there is more an element of craft, taste, and judgment than there is durable, repeatable principles which are universally applicable.

SrslyJosh 1y ago
> "high leverage outcomes" You're not talking to managers here, you can use plain english. > Maybe the phrase "prompt engineering" is bad and it really should be called "prompt crafting" because there is more an element of craft, taste, and judgment than there is durable, repeatable principles which are universally applicable. Yes, the biggest problem with the phrase is that "engineering" implies a well-defined process with predicable results (think of designing a bridge), and prompting doesn't check either of those boxes.
- yowlingcat 1y ago
  My goals are outcomes on the key metrics of the business I run (such as opex, funnel pull-through, time to resolution) that translate the human effort and inputs into significantly more output than previous approaches we were using. That particular quotient (amplification of outputs over inputs) is the definition of leverage, and it is plain english. I don't think it's fair to hand-wave a word with a very specific meaning away as "manager speak" because you're unfamiliar with it. I have been using LLMs very specifically to drive towards those goals, and prompt engineering (or crafting given you dislike the phrase "engineering") is a crucial tool to get to those outcomes. And yes, sometimes that means writing my own code itself to interact with them, template prompts, post process, utilize them in workflows. And so, the more I think about it, the more that I see patterns in how I create prompts (that probably could be automated with the same tools used for content templating) that make it feel somewhere in the middle of engineering and crafting. My guess is that semantic ambiguity makes a lot of folks uncomfortable. If that's engineering, what isn't engineering, and doesn't it dilute engineering? Yet from the other angle, it's absolutely the case that LLM utilization is absolutely becoming a greater and greater part of how cutting edge companies write code, so much so that the "code" that the humans must put effort and intention into writing is just as much prompts as it is the fine tuned artifact created by running the prompt. If the reality of what actually is "code" is itself evolving, it's hard to imagine anything but that what constitutes software engineering must also itself be evolving in a very fundamental way.

NitpickLawyer 1y ago

> Since when the ability to write proper and meaningful sentences became engineering? Since what's proper and meaningful depends on a lot of variables. Testing these, keeping track of them, logging and versioning take it from "vibe prompting" to "prompt engineering" IMO. There are plenty of papers detailing this work. Some things work better than others (do this and this works better than don't do this - pink elephants thing). Structuring is important. Style is important. Order of information is important. Re-stating the problem is important. Then there's quirks with family models. If you're running an API-served model you need internal checks to make sure the new version still behaves well on your prompts. These checks and tests are "prompt engineering". I feel a lot of people take the knee-jerk reaction to the hype and miss critical aspects because they want to dunk on the hype.

gwervc 1y ago
It's still very very far from engineering. Like, how long and how much one has to study to get an engineering degree? 5 years over many disciplines. On the other hand, prompt tweaking can be learned in a few days just by experimenting.
- NitpickLawyer 1y ago
  >the branch of science and technology concerned with the design, building, and use of engines, machines, and structures. Not this one. > (alt) a field of study or activity concerned with modification or development in a particular area. "software engineering" This one ^^^ Too many people seem really triggered by this. I don't know why, but it's weird. It's just a term. It's well understood by now. The first 5 pages on google all state the same thing. Why bicker about something so trivial?
apwell23 1y ago
> Some things work better than others That could be said about ordering coffee at local coffee shop. Is there a "barista order engineering" we are all supposed to read? > Re-stating the problem is important. maybe you can show us some examples ?

SchemaLoad 1y ago

AI sloperators are desperate to make it look like they are actually doing something.

wiseowise 1y ago

God, do you get off of word “engineer”? Is it cultural?

Q9xhm0E5228tjF 1y ago
Found a prompt "engineer".

liampulles 1y ago

If my local barista were to start calling themselves a coffee engineer, I would treat that as a more credible title.

hansmayer 1y ago
Yeah, if this catches on, we may definitely see the title "engineer" go the way of "manager" and "VP" in the last decades...So, yeah, we may start seeing coffee engineers now :D
gwervc 1y ago
Mixologist has already replaced bartender.

sach1 1y ago

I agree with yowlingcat's point but I see where you are coming from and also agree with you. The way I see it, it's a bit like putting up a job posting for 'somebody who knows SSH'. While that is a useful skill, it's really not something you can specialize in since it's just a subset within linux/unix/network administration, if that makes sense.

empath75 1y ago

I think prompt engineering is closer to a people management skill than it is to engineering.

mseepgood 1y ago

You don't even have to write proper sentences. "me get error X how fix here code:" usually works.

bicepjai 1y ago

I would argue code is a meaningful sentence. So software writers is more appropriate :) ?

zelias 1y ago

Since modern algorithmic driven brainrot has degraded the ability of the average consumer to read a complete sentence, let alone write one

lowbloodsugar 1y ago

Like lawyers?

ocimbote 1y ago
Please be respectful to justice engineers. For the uneducated, law engineers are members of the Congress / Parliament / Bundestag / [add for your own country]

mkfs 1y ago

> The unfortunate thing is that there will probably be job postings for such things I don't think you have to worry about that.

theshrike79 1y ago

Context is king. Let's say you have two teams of contractors. One from your native country (I'm assuming US here), working remotely and one from India, located in India. Would you communicate with both in the exact same manner, you wouldn't adjust your messaging in any way? Of course you would, that's exactly what "prompt engineering" is. The language models are a different and a bit fiddly at the moment, so getting quality output from each requires a specific input. You can try it yourself, ask each of the big free-tier models to write a simple script in a specific language for you, every single one will have a different output. They all have a specific "style" they fall into.