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> Swift seems like a really nice language that's held back by it's association with Apple. Or empowered by its association with Apple. That's a pretty big pond

> Swift seems like a really nice language that's held back by it's association with Apple. Or empowered by its association with Apple. That's a pretty big pond. I like Swift, and I write software for Apple devices. I don't really care, whether or not it supports other platforms. For my backend work, I tend to use PHP, because there's a very broad base of servers that support it, it's good enough, fast enough, and, doggone it, people like it... Another comment mentions that languages aren't really the issue, platforms are, and enumerates a number of application contexts, and the languages that are used to develop in those contexts. If you want to write native Apple software, then you need to either use ObjC, or Swift. You can use C or C++, and JavaScript, if you don't mind gluing them on, but native is Swift/ObjC, and Apple doesn't really do much to support ObjC (but they have to, anyway, because I guarantee that some of the biggest apps out there, still run with ObjC -including some Apple ones). I use Swift. I write both UIKit and SwiftUI, but find that UIKit is what I use to deliver a great user experience. I have to use SwiftUI, for a few applications (like Watch apps), and am constantly slamming into its limitations.

esseph 1y ago
Given this comment, the next one that starts with something like "I don't think anybody cares about Apple here" made me giggle.
- ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
  Eh. That's why I run showdead = no. That comment obviously got nuked. It's really fun, knowing that some folks hate me, just because I write software for Apple platforms. I don't hate them back. That kind of hatred isn't very good for you. It's Commissioner Dreyfus-level obsession. But this also shows what a tiny, tiny minority of people are represented here. Apple's a three-trillion-dollar company, because most folks aren't like us.
  - johannes1234321 1y ago
    I don't believe that is the point of the thread. The thread was about "Swift would be a good language, but all the attention and focus is on the Apple ecosystem and everybody using it for something else is an outlier and if you don't want to deal with apple it's a hard game"
    - ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
      My response was directed at that. I said that its lack of non-Apple support isn’t a bad thing for many folks. It was designed by Apple, for Apple. They only care about non-Apple support, if it results in Apple software for Apple hardware. I suspect they will be using it for some of their new custom server farms (or Python). Mercenary as hell, but it’s not an uncommon stance; especially with hardware companies. I had to work with that attitude all the time, at my last job.
  - esseph 1y ago
    I don't think you understand. The comment was basically "nobody gives a shit about apple stuff". This comes off as very "I am a main character post" on your part.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
    - ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
      We are all “main characters” of our own stories. If we keep the focus on ourselves, and what we have learned, from our own experiences, then we’re likely to be writing about stuff we know. I have had decades of experience with people saying “I hate you” because I write software for Apple systems, so I’m not imagining it. I also know that I’m not alone. It’s not exactly a “cutting edge” mindset. Personally, I’m offended. I think that it’s shallow. I have plenty of other fine qualities to hate. I’m always tempted to project motivation and intention onto others, but I’m not very good at it, so I keep it to myself.
      - esseph 1y ago
        [flagged]
Klonoar 1y ago
I mean, as long as Apple continues to support ObjC, you can use any language that has an ObjC interface. I've shipped native AppKit stuff in Rust before, people have done Ruby, etc. ObjC is one of the greatest "glue languages" to have existed IMO.
- ivm 1y ago
  Yup, I've been writing in C# for Apple platforms since 2018. The tooling is a bit clunky, but great experience otherwise.
  - ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
    We used to write algorithms in C++. The UI was ObjC, though (or C#, for Windows).
bigyabai 1y ago
> Or empowered by its association with Apple. If your response to "Swift is being limited by Apple" is "well at least Apple hasn't killed it yet" then yeah, you're proving their point. Assuming you're right, and Swift is being empowered by Apple, then what is the language without Apple's support? Another .Net situation. They control the vision, the pitfalls of Swift as a language are the result of Apple's discretion. You can't blame the community for refusing to do Apple's dirty work pro-bono. And honestly, Apple shouldn't be unhappy with where Swift is at right now either. They got exactly what they wanted from it, having third-party language stakeholders was never part of the equation for supporting Swift. A best-case scenario like Mono for Dotnet wouldn't be worth it, and Apple devrel is already in the toilet to boot. Might as well just go mask-off and run the whole thing like any other iOS library, but that's just my $0.02.

esseph 1y ago

Given this comment, the next one that starts with something like "I don't think anybody cares about Apple here" made me giggle.

ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
Eh. That's why I run showdead = no. That comment obviously got nuked. It's really fun, knowing that some folks hate me, just because I write software for Apple platforms. I don't hate them back. That kind of hatred isn't very good for you. It's Commissioner Dreyfus-level obsession. But this also shows what a tiny, tiny minority of people are represented here. Apple's a three-trillion-dollar company, because most folks aren't like us.
- johannes1234321 1y ago
  I don't believe that is the point of the thread. The thread was about "Swift would be a good language, but all the attention and focus is on the Apple ecosystem and everybody using it for something else is an outlier and if you don't want to deal with apple it's a hard game"
  - ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
    My response was directed at that. I said that its lack of non-Apple support isn’t a bad thing for many folks. It was designed by Apple, for Apple. They only care about non-Apple support, if it results in Apple software for Apple hardware. I suspect they will be using it for some of their new custom server farms (or Python). Mercenary as hell, but it’s not an uncommon stance; especially with hardware companies. I had to work with that attitude all the time, at my last job.
- esseph 1y ago
  I don't think you understand. The comment was basically "nobody gives a shit about apple stuff". This comes off as very "I am a main character post" on your part.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
    We are all “main characters” of our own stories. If we keep the focus on ourselves, and what we have learned, from our own experiences, then we’re likely to be writing about stuff we know. I have had decades of experience with people saying “I hate you” because I write software for Apple systems, so I’m not imagining it. I also know that I’m not alone. It’s not exactly a “cutting edge” mindset. Personally, I’m offended. I think that it’s shallow. I have plenty of other fine qualities to hate. I’m always tempted to project motivation and intention onto others, but I’m not very good at it, so I keep it to myself.
    - esseph 1y ago
      [flagged]

Klonoar 1y ago

I mean, as long as Apple continues to support ObjC, you can use any language that has an ObjC interface. I've shipped native AppKit stuff in Rust before, people have done Ruby, etc. ObjC is one of the greatest "glue languages" to have existed IMO.

ivm 1y ago
Yup, I've been writing in C# for Apple platforms since 2018. The tooling is a bit clunky, but great experience otherwise.
- ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
  We used to write algorithms in C++. The UI was ObjC, though (or C#, for Windows).

bigyabai 1y ago

> Or empowered by its association with Apple. If your response to "Swift is being limited by Apple" is "well at least Apple hasn't killed it yet" then yeah, you're proving their point. Assuming you're right, and Swift is being empowered by Apple, then what is the language without Apple's support? Another .Net situation. They control the vision, the pitfalls of Swift as a language are the result of Apple's discretion. You can't blame the community for refusing to do Apple's dirty work pro-bono. And honestly, Apple shouldn't be unhappy with where Swift is at right now either. They got exactly what they wanted from it, having third-party language stakeholders was never part of the equation for supporting Swift. A best-case scenario like Mono for Dotnet wouldn't be worth it, and Apple devrel is already in the toilet to boot. Might as well just go mask-off and run the whole thing like any other iOS library, but that's just my $0.02.