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> Unfortunately, producing ultrapure titanium is significantly more expensive than manufacturing steel (an iron alloy) and aluminum, owing to the substantial us

> Unfortunately, producing ultrapure titanium is significantly more expensive than manufacturing steel (an iron alloy) and aluminum, owing to the substantial use of energy and resources in preparing high-purity titanium. Developing a cheap, easy way to prepare it—and facilitate product development for industry and common consumers—is the problem the researchers aimed to address. "Direct production of low-oxygen-concentration titanium from molten titanium" (2024) https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-024-49085-4 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-024-49085-4

Animats 1y ago
Any comments from someone in the metals industry? The paper shows this process being done at lab scale. It needs to be scaled up to steel mill size. How hard does that look?
- more_corn 1y ago
  Just gotta solve the yttrium issue and it’s ready for prime time. Maybe they could introduce a sort of spider to consume the yttrium…
  - metalman 1y ago
    there may be no yttrium issue from wiki: Small amounts of yttrium (0.1 to 0.2%) have been used to reduce the grain sizes of chromium, molybdenum, titanium, and zirconium.[81] Yttrium is used to increase the strength of aluminium and magnesium alloys.[15] The addition of yttrium to alloys generally improves workability, adds resistance to high-temperature recrystallization, and significantly enhances resistance to high-temperature oxidation (see graphite nodule discussion below).[68] Yttrium can be used to deoxidize vanadium and other non-ferrous metals.[15] Yttria stabilizes the cubic form of zirconia in jewelry.[82] Yttrium has been studied as a nodulizer in ductile cast iron, forming the graphite into compact nodules instead of flakes to increase ductility and fatigue resistance.[15] Having a high melting point, yttrium oxide is used in some ceramic and glass to impart shock resistance and low thermal expansion properties.[15] Those same properties make such glass useful in camera lenses.[51] Medical
- westurner 1y ago
  What a useful question though. I hadn't realized that the cost of titanium is due to lack of a process for removing oxygen. What is the most efficient and sustainable alternative to yttrium for removing oxygen from titanium? process(TiO2, …) => Ti, …
  - westurner 1y ago
    From teh Gemini 2.5 Pro AI "expert", with human review: > For primary titanium production (from ore): Molten Salt Electrolysis (Direct Electrochemical Deoxygenation, FFC Cambridge, OS processes, etc.) and calciothermic reduction in molten salts > They aim to [sic.] revolutionize titanium production by moving away from the energy-intensive and environmentally impactful Kroll process, directly reducing TiO 2 and offering the potential for closed-loop systems. > For recycling titanium scrap and deep deoxidation: Hydrogen plasma arc melting and calcium-based deoxidation techniques (especially electrochemical calcium generation) are highly promising. Hydrogen offers extreme cleanliness, while calcium offers potent deoxidizing power. ... > Magnesium Hydride Reduction (e.g., University of Utah's reactor) > Solid-State Reduction (e.g., Metalysis process) Are there more efficient, sustainable methods of titanium production? Also, TIL Ti is a catalyst for CNT carbon nanotube production; and, alloying CNTs with Ti leaves vacancies.
    - mmooss 1y ago
      > with human review What human?
    - meepmorp 1y ago
      > From teh Gemini 2.5 Pro AI "expert", with human review: You don't know enough about the subject to answer the question on your own, do you? So your "review" is really just cutting and pasting shit you also don't understand, which may or may not be true. Thanks for your service.
      - westurner 1y ago
        Do you have a factual dispute with what I posted? Are any of those alternatives hallucinations, in your opinion? I feel uncompleted to further assist these.
- digdugdirk 1y ago
  From someone in the product design/manufacturing space - this wouldn't change much. The problem with titanium isn't the material cost (which is expensive, but could be justified in a variety of scenarios) but rather everything else about it. Its an absolute pain in the rear to work with, your manufacturing base is tiny, specialized equipment and tooling is needed, it makes tiny little incendiary devices when being cut, etc. Its cool, and it has plenty of applications where it is the only choice. But those applications already use it, and lowering the material cost isn't going to make more designers decide to just start using it on a whim. (PS - This could be more useful if titanium 3d printers start becoming more accessible. But again, that's a low volume manufacturing process so the material costs still don't play much into final part cost.)
  - Animats 1y ago
    With lower material costs, more mundane applications might appear, but probably not all that many. 3D printed titanium eyeglass frames are already a thing, though. Here's three generations of Space-X's Raptor engine.[1] The last one is mostly 3D printed. There are layers of different materials, and one is a titanium layer. Notice how the plumbing was simplified for each generation. Rocket engines are mostly plumbing. The fuel is used to cool the engine bell before it is used for power. Everything has cooling cavities inside. All that interior geometry is ideal for 3D printing. In the NASA glory days, those things were built by hand welding large numbers of machined pieces into an engine. Look at that Raptor engine on the right. Everything below the pumps is all one big part. No joints, no welds, no brackets, no plumbing fittings. Nice. [1] https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2024/08/spacex-reveals-raptor-3-engine-and-specifications.html https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2024/08/spacex-reveals-raptor-...

Animats 1y ago

Any comments from someone in the metals industry? The paper shows this process being done at lab scale. It needs to be scaled up to steel mill size. How hard does that look?

more_corn 1y ago
Just gotta solve the yttrium issue and it’s ready for prime time. Maybe they could introduce a sort of spider to consume the yttrium…
- metalman 1y ago
  there may be no yttrium issue from wiki: Small amounts of yttrium (0.1 to 0.2%) have been used to reduce the grain sizes of chromium, molybdenum, titanium, and zirconium.[81] Yttrium is used to increase the strength of aluminium and magnesium alloys.[15] The addition of yttrium to alloys generally improves workability, adds resistance to high-temperature recrystallization, and significantly enhances resistance to high-temperature oxidation (see graphite nodule discussion below).[68] Yttrium can be used to deoxidize vanadium and other non-ferrous metals.[15] Yttria stabilizes the cubic form of zirconia in jewelry.[82] Yttrium has been studied as a nodulizer in ductile cast iron, forming the graphite into compact nodules instead of flakes to increase ductility and fatigue resistance.[15] Having a high melting point, yttrium oxide is used in some ceramic and glass to impart shock resistance and low thermal expansion properties.[15] Those same properties make such glass useful in camera lenses.[51] Medical
westurner 1y ago
What a useful question though. I hadn't realized that the cost of titanium is due to lack of a process for removing oxygen. What is the most efficient and sustainable alternative to yttrium for removing oxygen from titanium? process(TiO2, …) => Ti, …
- westurner 1y ago
  From teh Gemini 2.5 Pro AI "expert", with human review: > For primary titanium production (from ore): Molten Salt Electrolysis (Direct Electrochemical Deoxygenation, FFC Cambridge, OS processes, etc.) and calciothermic reduction in molten salts > They aim to [sic.] revolutionize titanium production by moving away from the energy-intensive and environmentally impactful Kroll process, directly reducing TiO 2 and offering the potential for closed-loop systems. > For recycling titanium scrap and deep deoxidation: Hydrogen plasma arc melting and calcium-based deoxidation techniques (especially electrochemical calcium generation) are highly promising. Hydrogen offers extreme cleanliness, while calcium offers potent deoxidizing power. ... > Magnesium Hydride Reduction (e.g., University of Utah's reactor) > Solid-State Reduction (e.g., Metalysis process) Are there more efficient, sustainable methods of titanium production? Also, TIL Ti is a catalyst for CNT carbon nanotube production; and, alloying CNTs with Ti leaves vacancies.
  - mmooss 1y ago
    > with human review What human?
  - meepmorp 1y ago
    > From teh Gemini 2.5 Pro AI "expert", with human review: You don't know enough about the subject to answer the question on your own, do you? So your "review" is really just cutting and pasting shit you also don't understand, which may or may not be true. Thanks for your service.
    - westurner 1y ago
      Do you have a factual dispute with what I posted? Are any of those alternatives hallucinations, in your opinion? I feel uncompleted to further assist these.
digdugdirk 1y ago
From someone in the product design/manufacturing space - this wouldn't change much. The problem with titanium isn't the material cost (which is expensive, but could be justified in a variety of scenarios) but rather everything else about it. Its an absolute pain in the rear to work with, your manufacturing base is tiny, specialized equipment and tooling is needed, it makes tiny little incendiary devices when being cut, etc. Its cool, and it has plenty of applications where it is the only choice. But those applications already use it, and lowering the material cost isn't going to make more designers decide to just start using it on a whim. (PS - This could be more useful if titanium 3d printers start becoming more accessible. But again, that's a low volume manufacturing process so the material costs still don't play much into final part cost.)
- Animats 1y ago
  With lower material costs, more mundane applications might appear, but probably not all that many. 3D printed titanium eyeglass frames are already a thing, though. Here's three generations of Space-X's Raptor engine.[1] The last one is mostly 3D printed. There are layers of different materials, and one is a titanium layer. Notice how the plumbing was simplified for each generation. Rocket engines are mostly plumbing. The fuel is used to cool the engine bell before it is used for power. Everything has cooling cavities inside. All that interior geometry is ideal for 3D printing. In the NASA glory days, those things were built by hand welding large numbers of machined pieces into an engine. Look at that Raptor engine on the right. Everything below the pumps is all one big part. No joints, no welds, no brackets, no plumbing fittings. Nice. [1] https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2024/08/spacex-reveals-raptor-3-engine-and-specifications.html https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2024/08/spacex-reveals-raptor-...