3 ms·

Mind elaborating on why you feel its justified? Just curious.

JKCalhoun 1y ago
If they're feeling like "the fix is in" and they no longer have a voice in the big decisions happening in this country — that there is a small club of elites that are calling the shots ... well, they may not be wrong. If they're feeling overwhelmed by the pace of the change happening in our modern world/society, feeling as though they are being left behind — they're not the only ones. If they're feeling as though the contract between the wealth-holders and the laborers has been getting worse and worse for the worker, they may be on to something. Maybe they see the wealthy continuing to fail upward and are finding that just working hard and saving money seem to be less than treading water. There's plenty of things to have grievances about. And I think "left" and "right" might have common ground on these issues.
- Herring 1y ago
  The US right wing thinks very differently about inequality compared to progressives. They are more about opportunity than outcomes. They want free markets, individual responsibility, and are generally skeptical of govt programs aimed at redistributing wealth. They argue these can create dependency, distort markets, stifle economic growth, infringe on individual liberties and property rights etc. In practice, this means tax cuts, deregulation, opposition to min wage increases, welfare reform, school vouchers, opposition to unions, healthcare cuts, project 2025, etc etc. They’ll reduce govt intervention and go all in on free markets. They are wrong because the outcomes of this unrestricted free market approach are not so good, but nevertheless for now it’s impossible to find common ground with FDR-style progressives. Check back after the next depression. Note: there’s also a strong racist/sexist/homophobic/etc streak that prevents most kinds of solidarity.
- ryandrake 1y ago
  Those grievances are justified, but they aren't grievances held by the right. If they actually feel these things, they sure aren't voting to change them, in fact quite the opposite. As you pointed out, they are rallying around people who openly are trying to make all those problems worse. OP (toomanyrichies)'s comment makes much more sense. The right's grievances aren't against elites, the wealthy, the privileged, employers, or the pace of change. Their grievances are against less powerful outgroups who serve as scapegoats that can't fight back: Immigrants, minorities, gay and trans people, "woke" culture warriors, the poor, and so on. The government is seen as a tool for punching down and exacting cruelty onto these outgroups. That's what really motivates them. I live in a "red" part of the country, surrounded by Trump flags. Ask them what good their team has done for their own lives, and if you get past the canned talking points that don't make sense, they'll admit their lives aren't really much better than they were in 2016. Ask them what they like about MAGA, and it will be all about the attacking and cruelty he's doing to their perceived enemies.
  - toomanyrichies 1y ago
    > If they actually feel these things, they sure aren't voting to change them, in fact quite the opposite. +1. Just as we engineers say "The purpose of a system is what it does" [1], a corollary to that is "the intention of a vote is what it achieves". If red-state voters consistently vote against their own economic interests, then either one of two things is true: - They must have other interests in mind (i.e. punching down on marginalized groups), or - Their interest in economic self-preservation is outweighed by their belief in helping the rich get richer, possibly because they see themselves as "temporarily embarrassed millionaires"? [2] 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_purpose_of_a_system_is_what_it_does https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_purpose_of_a_system_is_wha... 2. https://www.reddit.com/r/QuotesPorn/comments/jotijb/john_steinbeck_once_said_that_socialism_never/ https://www.reddit.com/r/QuotesPorn/comments/jotijb/john_ste...
  - Herring 1y ago
    This is quite helpful and insightful, thanks. I just went down a rabbit hole about human psychology and scapegoating.
- username135 1y ago
  Thanks. I tend to agree with your points.

If they're feeling like "the fix is in" and they no longer have a voice in the big decisions happening in this country — that there is a small club of elites that are calling the shots ... well, they may not be wrong. If they're feeling overwhelmed by the pace of the change happening in our modern world/society, feeling as though they are being left behind — they're not the only ones. If they're feeling as though the contract between the wealth-holders and the laborers has been getting worse and worse for the worker, they may be on to something. Maybe they see the wealthy continuing to fail upward and are finding that just working hard and saving money seem to be less than treading water. There's plenty of things to have grievances about. And I think "left" and "right" might have common ground on these issues.

Herring 1y ago
The US right wing thinks very differently about inequality compared to progressives. They are more about opportunity than outcomes. They want free markets, individual responsibility, and are generally skeptical of govt programs aimed at redistributing wealth. They argue these can create dependency, distort markets, stifle economic growth, infringe on individual liberties and property rights etc. In practice, this means tax cuts, deregulation, opposition to min wage increases, welfare reform, school vouchers, opposition to unions, healthcare cuts, project 2025, etc etc. They’ll reduce govt intervention and go all in on free markets. They are wrong because the outcomes of this unrestricted free market approach are not so good, but nevertheless for now it’s impossible to find common ground with FDR-style progressives. Check back after the next depression. Note: there’s also a strong racist/sexist/homophobic/etc streak that prevents most kinds of solidarity.
ryandrake 1y ago
Those grievances are justified, but they aren't grievances held by the right. If they actually feel these things, they sure aren't voting to change them, in fact quite the opposite. As you pointed out, they are rallying around people who openly are trying to make all those problems worse. OP (toomanyrichies)'s comment makes much more sense. The right's grievances aren't against elites, the wealthy, the privileged, employers, or the pace of change. Their grievances are against less powerful outgroups who serve as scapegoats that can't fight back: Immigrants, minorities, gay and trans people, "woke" culture warriors, the poor, and so on. The government is seen as a tool for punching down and exacting cruelty onto these outgroups. That's what really motivates them. I live in a "red" part of the country, surrounded by Trump flags. Ask them what good their team has done for their own lives, and if you get past the canned talking points that don't make sense, they'll admit their lives aren't really much better than they were in 2016. Ask them what they like about MAGA, and it will be all about the attacking and cruelty he's doing to their perceived enemies.
- toomanyrichies 1y ago
  > If they actually feel these things, they sure aren't voting to change them, in fact quite the opposite. +1. Just as we engineers say "The purpose of a system is what it does" [1], a corollary to that is "the intention of a vote is what it achieves". If red-state voters consistently vote against their own economic interests, then either one of two things is true: - They must have other interests in mind (i.e. punching down on marginalized groups), or - Their interest in economic self-preservation is outweighed by their belief in helping the rich get richer, possibly because they see themselves as "temporarily embarrassed millionaires"? [2] 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_purpose_of_a_system_is_what_it_does https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_purpose_of_a_system_is_wha... 2. https://www.reddit.com/r/QuotesPorn/comments/jotijb/john_steinbeck_once_said_that_socialism_never/ https://www.reddit.com/r/QuotesPorn/comments/jotijb/john_ste...
- Herring 1y ago
  This is quite helpful and insightful, thanks. I just went down a rabbit hole about human psychology and scapegoating.
username135 1y ago
Thanks. I tend to agree with your points.