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> and just to play devil's advocate Your comment would be improved by simply removing that phrase. It adds nothing and in fact detracts. > just like with open

by lapcat 1y ago

> and just to play devil's advocate Your comment would be improved by simply removing that phrase. It adds nothing and in fact detracts. > just like with open vs. closed offices or remote vs in-person, maybe some people have all the human interaction they want outside of work and don't mind "talking" to some AI as long as it gets shit done in the manner they want. You're presenting a false dichotomy. If someone doesn't enjoying mentoring juniors, that's fine. They shouldn't have to. But why would one have to choose between mentoring juniors or babysitting LLM agents? How about neither? sasmithjr was apparently trying to defend babysitting A.I. by making an analogy with mentoring juniors, whereas I replied by arguing that the two are not alike. Whether or not you enjoy using A.I. is an entirely separate issue, independent of mentoring.

ookblah 1y ago
i was trying to frame it as something i'm also grappling with, but i digress poor choice of words. maybe you're responding to the wrong person? because i'm not even disagreeing with you on that. maybe they want both or neither, that's fine. the person i'm responding to is framing mentoring as some kind must have from a "socialization" standpoint (which i disagreed with, but i get the practical aspect of it where if you don't have people train juniors there won't be seniors).
- bluefirebrand 1y ago
  No, not "socialization" as in "having social interactions with other people" I mean "socialization" as in "being a positive part of and building a society worth living in"
  - ookblah 1y ago
    and why do you think that has to exist solely within the confines of work? not that you said that, but your comments seem to suggest that if you don't like or want to mentor junior devs then you don't value human connections. thus my comment about having enough connections outside of work. if it's rewarding to you that's great, but don't frame it as something bigger than it is. i would hope we are all "being a positive part of and building a society worth living in" in our own way.
    - bluefirebrand 1y ago
      > if you don't like or want to mentor junior devs then you don't value human connections If you don't like or want to mentor the younger generation then you are actively sabotaging the future of society because those people are the future of society Why do I care about the future of society? Because I still have to live in it for another few decades
      - ookblah 1y ago
        alright, we can agree to disagree because this so obviously touching a chord with you and you're now literally making sweeping assumptions based on things i've never said. maybe i like taking care of my friends kids, volunteering, or doing other things that contribute to the "future of society"? personally, i think mentoring junior devs is slightly lower on the priority list, but that's my opinion. seriously, how arrogant of you to make assumptions about how others think about the future based on a tiny slice of your personal life lol.
        bluefirebrand 1y ago
        > maybe i like taking care of my friends kids, volunteering, or doing other things that contribute to the "future of society That's great, that doesn't absolve you of your responsibility to also mentor juniors at work though Those are different tasks in different worlds and they all need doing
        ookblah 1y ago
        nice deflection. i might not share your enthusiasm for mentoring junior devs, but i do it anyway because like you, i agree it's important. the point, though, is at the end of the day even if i didn't do it you have no fucking right to come with that moral high ground. if you've optimized every facet of your life to do all the "responsible things" society needs then feel free to throw the first stone. anything else is just posturing. and just a small thing, it's ironic that you're so fixated on socialization for society’s sake while being so tunnel-visioned in defending your own definition of what that even means. i've given you plenty examples but it just doesn't fit the one you personally adhere to.
sasmithjr 1y ago
> sasmithjr was apparently trying to defend babysitting A.I. by making an analogy with mentoring juniors I regret adding that last bit to my comment because my main point (which I clearly messed up emphasizing and communicating) is that I think you’re presenting a false dichotomy in the original comment. Now that work can be done with LLMs asynchronously, it’s possible to both write your own code and guide LLMs as they need it when you have down time. And nothing about that requires stopping other functions of the job like mentoring and teaching juniors, either, so you can still build relationships on the job, too. If having to attend to an LLM in any way makes the job worse for you, I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. So far, LLMs feel like one of many other automations that I use frequently and haven’t really changed my satisfaction with my job.
- lapcat 1y ago
  > If having to attend to an LLM in any way makes the job worse for you I think you're downplaying the nightmare scenario, and your own previous comment already suggests a more expansive use of LLM: "so a senior engineer can send it off to work on multiple issues at once". What I fear, and what I already see happening to an extent, is a top-down corporate mandate to use AI, indeed a mandate to maximize the use of AI in order to maximize (alleged) "productivity". Ultimately, then, senior engineers become glorified babysitters of the AI. It's not about the personal choice of the engineer, just like, as the other commenter mentioned, open vs. closed offices or remote vs. in-person are often not the choice of individual engineers but rather a top-down corporate mandate. We've already seen a corporate backlash against remote work and a widespread top-down demand for RTO. That's real; it's happened and is happening.

by lapcat 1y ago

ookblah 1y ago

i was trying to frame it as something i'm also grappling with, but i digress poor choice of words. maybe you're responding to the wrong person? because i'm not even disagreeing with you on that. maybe they want both or neither, that's fine. the person i'm responding to is framing mentoring as some kind must have from a "socialization" standpoint (which i disagreed with, but i get the practical aspect of it where if you don't have people train juniors there won't be seniors).

bluefirebrand 1y ago
No, not "socialization" as in "having social interactions with other people" I mean "socialization" as in "being a positive part of and building a society worth living in"
- ookblah 1y ago
  and why do you think that has to exist solely within the confines of work? not that you said that, but your comments seem to suggest that if you don't like or want to mentor junior devs then you don't value human connections. thus my comment about having enough connections outside of work. if it's rewarding to you that's great, but don't frame it as something bigger than it is. i would hope we are all "being a positive part of and building a society worth living in" in our own way.
  - bluefirebrand 1y ago
    > if you don't like or want to mentor junior devs then you don't value human connections If you don't like or want to mentor the younger generation then you are actively sabotaging the future of society because those people are the future of society Why do I care about the future of society? Because I still have to live in it for another few decades
    - ookblah 1y ago
      alright, we can agree to disagree because this so obviously touching a chord with you and you're now literally making sweeping assumptions based on things i've never said. maybe i like taking care of my friends kids, volunteering, or doing other things that contribute to the "future of society"? personally, i think mentoring junior devs is slightly lower on the priority list, but that's my opinion. seriously, how arrogant of you to make assumptions about how others think about the future based on a tiny slice of your personal life lol.
      - bluefirebrand 1y ago
        > maybe i like taking care of my friends kids, volunteering, or doing other things that contribute to the "future of society That's great, that doesn't absolve you of your responsibility to also mentor juniors at work though Those are different tasks in different worlds and they all need doing
        ookblah 1y ago
        nice deflection. i might not share your enthusiasm for mentoring junior devs, but i do it anyway because like you, i agree it's important. the point, though, is at the end of the day even if i didn't do it you have no fucking right to come with that moral high ground. if you've optimized every facet of your life to do all the "responsible things" society needs then feel free to throw the first stone. anything else is just posturing. and just a small thing, it's ironic that you're so fixated on socialization for society’s sake while being so tunnel-visioned in defending your own definition of what that even means. i've given you plenty examples but it just doesn't fit the one you personally adhere to.

sasmithjr 1y ago

> sasmithjr was apparently trying to defend babysitting A.I. by making an analogy with mentoring juniors I regret adding that last bit to my comment because my main point (which I clearly messed up emphasizing and communicating) is that I think you’re presenting a false dichotomy in the original comment. Now that work can be done with LLMs asynchronously, it’s possible to both write your own code and guide LLMs as they need it when you have down time. And nothing about that requires stopping other functions of the job like mentoring and teaching juniors, either, so you can still build relationships on the job, too. If having to attend to an LLM in any way makes the job worse for you, I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. So far, LLMs feel like one of many other automations that I use frequently and haven’t really changed my satisfaction with my job.

lapcat 1y ago
> If having to attend to an LLM in any way makes the job worse for you I think you're downplaying the nightmare scenario, and your own previous comment already suggests a more expansive use of LLM: "so a senior engineer can send it off to work on multiple issues at once". What I fear, and what I already see happening to an extent, is a top-down corporate mandate to use AI, indeed a mandate to maximize the use of AI in order to maximize (alleged) "productivity". Ultimately, then, senior engineers become glorified babysitters of the AI. It's not about the personal choice of the engineer, just like, as the other commenter mentioned, open vs. closed offices or remote vs. in-person are often not the choice of individual engineers but rather a top-down corporate mandate. We've already seen a corporate backlash against remote work and a widespread top-down demand for RTO. That's real; it's happened and is happening.