4 ms·

There's a famous essay about unstructured groups. They aren't actually free of hierarchy and structure, it's just informal. https://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/ty

There's a famous essay about unstructured groups. They aren't actually free of hierarchy and structure, it's just informal. https://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/tyranny.htm https://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/tyranny.htm

PaulHoule 1y ago
That essay is important but I think looking back it over 50 years it poses a question that hasn't yet been answered. That kind of unstructured group can advocate for (say) women, but if you add enough structure it becomes a group that writes checks to Democratic candidates. The most effective activist organizations I've been with have been temporary and deal with the structure/structureless/sustainability problem of melting into the crowd and reforming when necessary.
- gsf_emergency 1y ago
  (...I just think you haven't channeled enough of your schizotypy here :) (I suspect one can find under-interpreted arguments in Graeber that support your unpopular claim but...) In contrast, what seems really interesting (to me, &/or not just HN-blasphemous) is the alternate framing that Free markets can be extreme left-wing Can follow up on the discussion if you're interested-- maybe the real trouble is that Glen Weyl & Freedman haven't been proven crackpots >That essay is important In order to NOT be distracted by Freeman's essay, consider that it most likely hasnt ever crossed their minds that markets that look free can have much more intricate structure than the most uh thoughtful institution? Whether structure correlates with sentience is then the nub? Then there's the apparent counterpoint of a field known as "institutional econs"; not quite as friendly a framing to schizos :(
  - PaulHoule 1y ago
    This Graeber https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Graeber https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Graeber ?
    - gsf_emergency 1y ago
      More specifically: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21535498 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21535498 (The HN just for completeness; didn't see any remarkable dismissals there.. ntheless some (schizoid?) comments seemed worthy of being kept in my background eg https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21548795 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21548795 ) https://archive.is/latest/www.nybooks.com/articles/2019/12/05/against-economics/ https://archive.is/latest/www.nybooks.com/articles/2019/12/0... >After such a catastrophic embarrassment, orthodox economists fell back on their strong suit—academic politics and institutional power.

PaulHoule 1y ago

That essay is important but I think looking back it over 50 years it poses a question that hasn't yet been answered. That kind of unstructured group can advocate for (say) women, but if you add enough structure it becomes a group that writes checks to Democratic candidates. The most effective activist organizations I've been with have been temporary and deal with the structure/structureless/sustainability problem of melting into the crowd and reforming when necessary.

gsf_emergency 1y ago
(...I just think you haven't channeled enough of your schizotypy here :) (I suspect one can find under-interpreted arguments in Graeber that support your unpopular claim but...) In contrast, what seems really interesting (to me, &/or not just HN-blasphemous) is the alternate framing that Free markets can be extreme left-wing Can follow up on the discussion if you're interested-- maybe the real trouble is that Glen Weyl & Freedman haven't been proven crackpots >That essay is important In order to NOT be distracted by Freeman's essay, consider that it most likely hasnt ever crossed their minds that markets that look free can have much more intricate structure than the most uh thoughtful institution? Whether structure correlates with sentience is then the nub? Then there's the apparent counterpoint of a field known as "institutional econs"; not quite as friendly a framing to schizos :(
- PaulHoule 1y ago
  This Graeber https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Graeber https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Graeber ?
  - gsf_emergency 1y ago
    More specifically: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21535498 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21535498 (The HN just for completeness; didn't see any remarkable dismissals there.. ntheless some (schizoid?) comments seemed worthy of being kept in my background eg https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21548795 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21548795 ) https://archive.is/latest/www.nybooks.com/articles/2019/12/05/against-economics/ https://archive.is/latest/www.nybooks.com/articles/2019/12/0... >After such a catastrophic embarrassment, orthodox economists fell back on their strong suit—academic politics and institutional power.