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Also, I think the use of plastics and it's impact on the environment is probably overstated from a consumer standpoint- no one really thinks about the systemic

by awongh 1y ago

Also, I think the use of plastics and it's impact on the environment is probably overstated from a consumer standpoint- no one really thinks about the systemic issues and the cause and effect cycles at work. Everyone is concerned with micro plastics now, but taking drink bottles and making them into chairs is just a distraction. We have a lot of knowledge on how to literally burn plastic and not pollute anything- waste really doesn't have to be an issue. The micro plastics that studies find in the human body are probably from sources no one cares to address- acrylic paint, tires, polyester clothing, things that are constantly being ground into nano particle size bits that are omni-present in all environments (and no one even considers getting rid of). If you live in a first world country the ocean plastic isn't from you- if you drink from a plastic straw or not it probably doesn't matter. That plastic is most likely from fishing nets and from a few countries where people throw their waste directly into a few rivers. People would rather focus on shaming those who don't sort their trash and drink from plastic straws.

Anthony-G 1y ago
I largely agree with what you say but I have my doubts about the following statement. > If you live in a first world country the ocean plastic isn't from you I live in Ireland and I’m not sure that’s the case for us. Plastic was collected in the recycling bins and then shipped to China for processing. I was always skeptical of the environmental soundness of shipping plastic to the other side of the planet – and the lack of transparency about what happens to the plastic waste after. I always wondered if any plastic that wasn’t PET was just dumped in a river or the sea. A few years ago, China stopped accepting plastic refuse from Western countries so the plastic was sent to other Southeast Asian countries but they also find it to be not economically viable to process. I looked into this issue before but found it hard to get solid evidence that the plastic is actually recycled. I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of the plastic that is collected in the West for “recyling” ends up in the ocean, while we in the west pat ourselves on the back for doing the “right thing”. Personally, I do my best to Reduce and Reuse rather than Recycle.
- awongh 1y ago
  I guess that mostly proves my point in the sense that it's not most people's personal choices that determine if plastic ends up in the ocean- it's either incompetence or downright deliberately deceptive actions by someone else- it's crazy to think that we need to make chairs out of bottles because someone decided to ship the plastic to another country rather than actually deal with it properly. In that sense, saying "recycle or it'll end up in the ocean" is like saying "eat your food because people are starving in africa". Not only are the cause and effect not related but then people ignore the true underlying causes.
  - supplied_demand 1y ago
    ==it's not most people's personal choices that determine if plastic ends up in the ocean- it's either incompetence or downright deliberately deceptive actions by someone else-== It is your personal choice to consume goods packaged in plastic. If you, as a consumer, continue to eat pre-packaged peaches and apple slices rather than just eating apples and peaches, you are consciously adding to the known problem. Blaming "someone else" doesn't change the decision that you, as an autonomous individual, have made. Your stance uses the same logic that people use to excuse their impact on climate change. People who are generating trash (specifically plastic trash) are at fault for worsening the problem of excessive plastic trash, full stop. The same way that burning coal worsens the climate problem. The justification that the problem is so big that individuals can't (or shouldn't) change their behaviors is a coping mechanism. It's borderline nihilistic.
    - awongh 1y ago
      > People who are generating trash (specifically plastic trash) are at fault for worsening the problem of excessive plastic trash, full stop. You can be absolutist about personal moral choices, but writing this reply used precious resources that are destroying the planet, on a device that almost certainly also contributed to pollution and human misery. I'm not saying that people shouldn't be informed and make moral and politically influenced decisions, just that the impact of those choices is probably overstated and people weaponize their choices against others for their own gain. Everyone can individually decide what they can accept, but I don't like it when people say I should buy their thing made out of recycled plastic like it's better for the earth if I do. I don't think that equivalence is obvious if you look at the whole problem.

by awongh 1y ago

Anthony-G 1y ago

I largely agree with what you say but I have my doubts about the following statement. > If you live in a first world country the ocean plastic isn't from you I live in Ireland and I’m not sure that’s the case for us. Plastic was collected in the recycling bins and then shipped to China for processing. I was always skeptical of the environmental soundness of shipping plastic to the other side of the planet – and the lack of transparency about what happens to the plastic waste after. I always wondered if any plastic that wasn’t PET was just dumped in a river or the sea. A few years ago, China stopped accepting plastic refuse from Western countries so the plastic was sent to other Southeast Asian countries but they also find it to be not economically viable to process. I looked into this issue before but found it hard to get solid evidence that the plastic is actually recycled. I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of the plastic that is collected in the West for “recyling” ends up in the ocean, while we in the west pat ourselves on the back for doing the “right thing”. Personally, I do my best to Reduce and Reuse rather than Recycle.

awongh 1y ago
I guess that mostly proves my point in the sense that it's not most people's personal choices that determine if plastic ends up in the ocean- it's either incompetence or downright deliberately deceptive actions by someone else- it's crazy to think that we need to make chairs out of bottles because someone decided to ship the plastic to another country rather than actually deal with it properly. In that sense, saying "recycle or it'll end up in the ocean" is like saying "eat your food because people are starving in africa". Not only are the cause and effect not related but then people ignore the true underlying causes.
- supplied_demand 1y ago
  ==it's not most people's personal choices that determine if plastic ends up in the ocean- it's either incompetence or downright deliberately deceptive actions by someone else-== It is your personal choice to consume goods packaged in plastic. If you, as a consumer, continue to eat pre-packaged peaches and apple slices rather than just eating apples and peaches, you are consciously adding to the known problem. Blaming "someone else" doesn't change the decision that you, as an autonomous individual, have made. Your stance uses the same logic that people use to excuse their impact on climate change. People who are generating trash (specifically plastic trash) are at fault for worsening the problem of excessive plastic trash, full stop. The same way that burning coal worsens the climate problem. The justification that the problem is so big that individuals can't (or shouldn't) change their behaviors is a coping mechanism. It's borderline nihilistic.
  - awongh 1y ago
    > People who are generating trash (specifically plastic trash) are at fault for worsening the problem of excessive plastic trash, full stop. You can be absolutist about personal moral choices, but writing this reply used precious resources that are destroying the planet, on a device that almost certainly also contributed to pollution and human misery. I'm not saying that people shouldn't be informed and make moral and politically influenced decisions, just that the impact of those choices is probably overstated and people weaponize their choices against others for their own gain. Everyone can individually decide what they can accept, but I don't like it when people say I should buy their thing made out of recycled plastic like it's better for the earth if I do. I don't think that equivalence is obvious if you look at the whole problem.