5 ms·

The main problem is that once you minimally need only one app which is only available for smartphones (banking, whatsapp, etc.) it's game-over. It's all or noth

The main problem is that once you minimally need only one app which is only available for smartphones (banking, whatsapp, etc.) it's game-over. It's all or nothing. For example, my bank requires that you install an app on your phone to approve any online purcharse. Game over.

_Algernon_ 1y ago
You can get pretty far by "dumbiphying" your smartphone. Uninstall / disable the web browser, social media, but keep 2fa apps and other essentials.
- puttycat 1y ago
  Right, but since we're dealing with addiction, I'd just reinstall it after 30 minutes.
  - Aerbil313 1y ago
    There are 2 bypass-free self-restriction (or self-liberation!) solutions for the iPhone. The first is is supervised MDM. If you have a Mac you can do it yourself (though you need to learn iPhone MDM). You can also pay companies like TechLockdown, they'll give you a customized remote-controlled profile to install that is not removable at a weak moment. You can set a lock with delay. When you need to wait 6 hours to change the settings, you won't be changing your settings to allow $ADDICTIVE_APP. The second option is much more complicated and has some caveats, like an inability to update apps, but I'll explain it since nobody seem to know about it. There is a way to turn an iPhone into a dumbphone, while keeping your banking app, without a Mac, for free. Go to Settings > Screen Time: - Set up a PIN for Screen Time. You’ll be asked to provide a recovery account. Create another Apple account with a password hard to memorize, like sjhr3762962826. Write that down. - In Content Restrictions > App Store, Media, Web, & Games > Web Content, set it to Only Approved Websites. Add all the websites you need to use in your daily life. Start simple, you'll quickly discover which ones you actually need. I'll let you in on a little secret: You don't need news.ycombinator.com in your pocket. - In Content Restrictions > iTunes & App Store purchases, disallow Installing Apps. - Personally, I also delete all apps that have any sort of infinite online content (even Wikipedia). - Set up Downtime for when you are supposed to be asleep. - Set up Always Allowed for critical apps which you might need even during your usual sleep hours (Health app, WhatsApp, Google Maps, etc.) - Final step: Let a very close person (like family member) change the Screen Time PIN, and let him write it down somewhere safe. Then give the password and the PIN to the person for safekeeping. When you need to change the settings (you want to add another allowed website, you want to install a new app, etc.) ask that person to make the change. There is a way you can not rely on another person, too. I won't detail it here, but it involves timelocking the Apple account's password and the Screen Time PIN. See https://github.com/rayanamal/timelock https://github.com/rayanamal/timelock With this setup, you can’t change the Screen Time settings yourself, and you can’t reset the PIN using “I forgot the PIN” button either.
    - puttycat 1y ago
      Oh wow thank you, I've been searching for something like this for a long time.
      - Aerbil313 1y ago
        One thing I forgot to mention. Every Apple account has a phone number tied to it for 2FA. That secondary recovery account should have a phone number you have no access to, otherwise you can reset its password. You can get a SIM, use it for account creation and then throw it away (though I doubt most people will need measures this extreme). There are further edge cases that I won't go into here, feel free to email me if you run into one. Brought to you by years of undiagnosed severe ADHD.
binarymax 1y ago
I’ve thought about this, because I’ve been meaning to make the switch. The solution isn’t that hard, just keep the smartphone in your desk drawer and use it for OTPs and banking apps. It’s annoying to have two phones and two numbers, but it can be done.
- ale42 1y ago
  Why do you even need a number on the smartphone? It can just work over wifi without SIM card. When you need an SMS to activate an app, you receive it on the dumbphone and type in the auth code on the "smart" one.
  - nalinidash 1y ago
    All UPI apps here(in India) register to bank in an automated way using Sim verification.It is baked to the app,you can't do the verification manually.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
- lrvick 1y ago
  You do not even need it for OTPs and banking apps. Even if employees tell you it is, they are always wrong in my experience. That QR code you are always shown when you setup an OTP? It usually uses the TOTP algorithm supported by a dozen password managers or hardware keychain devices that will generate codes for you on demand without a phone. Say you do not have a compatible phone and the app requirement can be waived by a manager. Not had a smartphone in 5 years. It is never a blocker.
  - zihotki 1y ago
    Or they will simply give a corporate one to you and tell to use it and carry it during working hours
    - lrvick 1y ago
ale42 1y ago
My bank requires it too. Except that if you call the customer service and tell them that well, you have no smartphone, then they switch you to SMS auth for that.
emberfiend 1y ago
Yeah, a smartphone with no dopamine feeds installed on it seems like the sane middle path here.
- binarymax 1y ago
  Only works if you can also remove the browser.
  - jen729w 1y ago
    Done this. Re-installed the browser.
    - const_cast 1y ago
      Yes, me too. It's an addiction, plain and simple. I used to throw away my pack of cigs every single day for months. Months! Always bought one the next day. Very expensive. Crazy how quick the mind changes it's mind.
piqufoh 1y ago
Another ridiculous use case is paying for tickets in car parks, some require a smartphone (with no cash or alternative options). And UK primary schools - catching up with the kids homework, messages from the teacher - requires an app and a smartphone! It's so frustrating!
- FirmwareBurner 1y ago
  >some require a smartphone Mandating the need of smartphone apps to access critical services and basic life necessities like payments, parking, refueling, charging your car, public transport tickets, etc should be banned under accessibility laws. All this only benefits the service provider, not the consumer, since if the service is broken in some way (LTE/internet issue, payment processor issue, backend/cloud outage, etc) or has terrible UX, then the externalities and negative effects of that are all on the customer to deal with. Because what else are you gonna do on the spot? Not charge your car? Leave it in the middle of the road? Not board the bus to get to work? The problem they caused becomes your problem to deal with even though you have the money to pay but no easy way to do it because of their crap. Governments need to hold service prodivers accountable for the misery they cause and have them offer payment solutions and alternatives to smartphone apps for such critical services.
  - go_elmo 1y ago
    Its like trying to ban cars to stay with horse cariages. The wheels of time wont be turned back. Imo the issue is not Smartphones but addicting UX patterns implemented - those should be banned. Its possible to make Smartphone usage non addictive - add friction to "candy" eg uninstall social media apps (use web only) use a quiet launcher (no app icons), remove all notifications except emergency ones etc.
    - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
      We're talking about different things here I think. What does phones and apps being addictive have to to do with the fact that a parking lot requires me to install an app to park my car or charge my car? There are a million other issues here than addictive apps. The internet connection could be down, he backend of the app could be down, etc. This shouldn't stop people from being able to use an important service like parking, charging, refueling, transportation, etc. You should be able to slot in some coins in a machine, get a paper ticket out, and that's it, you're in. >The wheels of time wont be turned back. They can be turned back by laws if the direction they've been turning by the unregulated free market lead us to a bad place that's discriminatory and causing misery to consumers, especially for critical services. We've been able to park and refuel cars fast and efficient for decades with no issues before apps and smartphones. Not all progress is good progress. Sometimes progress is just for the sake of cutting corners to increase profits for businesses at the expense of consumers. I don't want an "Bezos-fication" or "Musk-fication" of essential services.
lrvick 1y ago
Everyone says their bank or doctor, or favorite restaurant, or whatever requires an app. It is basically NEVER true. You just have to insist you do not own a compatible device and do not want one as you do not wish to accept the terms of service of Google or Apple, and/or say it is against your undisclosed religion. Works every time. Even at theme parks like Disney that insist you need an app for the map or fast pass... a manager can always override that requirement and give you the magic edge case privileges. Source: Not had a cell phone carrier or carried a phone in 5 years and never been restricted from doing anything I did previously, as a frequently traveling tech business owner.
- u_sama 1y ago
  In Europe, in order to be compliant with the new banking rules, you need to have a kind of external confirmation which is, ding ding ding your smartphone. You literally need to open your bank app in order to approve online transactions. And increasingly things are being digitalised thus you need will have an increasing need for smartphone because of such proposals. The alternative is that the bank sneds you a clunky OTP machine with a code every time you want to make a purchase or transaction.
  - card_zero 1y ago
    Or SMS.
  - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 1y ago
    It seems another alternative is to build a scheme that works with a universal second factor like a yubikey.
- chrismorgan 1y ago
  I had cause to need WhatsApp a bit over a year ago: it requires a device that runs iOS, or Android with Google Play. I just assumed I could get past this, but the signup flow refused to run on LineageOS with MicroG via Waydroid on my laptop—wanted an authentic, Google-approved environment. Maybe that can be worked around; I don’t know. Subsequently you can run WhatsApp Web… but you can’t make calls that way, and if you don’t run it on an actual phone for two weeks, it’ll boot you.
thibaultamartin 1y ago
It's exactly that. And I also have come to the realization that I don't have to give up the convenience my smartphone offers. I only need to add friction for what causes distractions. In particular, the Personal Time mode of iOS has been a game changer for me: https://ergaster.org/til/ask-smartphone-attention/ https://ergaster.org/til/ask-smartphone-attention/
ekianjo 1y ago
It's even worse than banking there are some stores that only accept app-based payments these days (no credit card either) which should be completely illegal
- lrvick 1y ago
  Never experienced this in 5 years of shopping all over the world. I just say I do not have a compatible phone, am traveling, against my religion, or whatever, and they get a manager who can bust out some non-advertized alternative. Take the time to do this so others do not have to. I make restaurants print me menus, and I make theme parks get me a paper map and accept cash so I maintain my privacy.
- antisol 1y ago
  Which stores? It sounds like maybe you should go to a different one.
jangrahul 1y ago
Another eg of this: Approve two factor login with microsoft authenticator app. Game over.
noufalibrahim 1y ago
There are compromise solutions that make it a pain to use which goes a long way to defeating addiction. Here are a few 1. Make the screen monochrome. It greatly reduces the appeal of the entire system. 2. Increase the font size so that things don't look as pretty and slick. You deliberately cripple the UX. 3. As much as possible, use a browser instead of an "app" (e.g. X, Amazon etc.) and then set a limit for the time you can use your browser per day. 4. I use this as a launcher on my phone https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.qqlabs.minimalistlauncher https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.qqlabs.min... which prevents has "mindfulness delays" for selected apps and other features that make the usage less smooth. A combination of these has helped me reduce my attachment to the phone. There are also lots of times when I don't take it with me.
mattbee 1y ago
Get a tablet? A really big, underpowered one? You can still use Android & iOS but if it's not in your pocket, that achieves some of the same goals without sacrificing those "compulsory" apps.
antisol 1y ago
It sounds like you need to switch banks

_Algernon_ 1y ago

You can get pretty far by "dumbiphying" your smartphone. Uninstall / disable the web browser, social media, but keep 2fa apps and other essentials.

puttycat 1y ago
Right, but since we're dealing with addiction, I'd just reinstall it after 30 minutes.
- Aerbil313 1y ago
  There are 2 bypass-free self-restriction (or self-liberation!) solutions for the iPhone. The first is is supervised MDM. If you have a Mac you can do it yourself (though you need to learn iPhone MDM). You can also pay companies like TechLockdown, they'll give you a customized remote-controlled profile to install that is not removable at a weak moment. You can set a lock with delay. When you need to wait 6 hours to change the settings, you won't be changing your settings to allow $ADDICTIVE_APP. The second option is much more complicated and has some caveats, like an inability to update apps, but I'll explain it since nobody seem to know about it. There is a way to turn an iPhone into a dumbphone, while keeping your banking app, without a Mac, for free. Go to Settings > Screen Time: - Set up a PIN for Screen Time. You’ll be asked to provide a recovery account. Create another Apple account with a password hard to memorize, like sjhr3762962826. Write that down. - In Content Restrictions > App Store, Media, Web, & Games > Web Content, set it to Only Approved Websites. Add all the websites you need to use in your daily life. Start simple, you'll quickly discover which ones you actually need. I'll let you in on a little secret: You don't need news.ycombinator.com in your pocket. - In Content Restrictions > iTunes & App Store purchases, disallow Installing Apps. - Personally, I also delete all apps that have any sort of infinite online content (even Wikipedia). - Set up Downtime for when you are supposed to be asleep. - Set up Always Allowed for critical apps which you might need even during your usual sleep hours (Health app, WhatsApp, Google Maps, etc.) - Final step: Let a very close person (like family member) change the Screen Time PIN, and let him write it down somewhere safe. Then give the password and the PIN to the person for safekeeping. When you need to change the settings (you want to add another allowed website, you want to install a new app, etc.) ask that person to make the change. There is a way you can not rely on another person, too. I won't detail it here, but it involves timelocking the Apple account's password and the Screen Time PIN. See https://github.com/rayanamal/timelock https://github.com/rayanamal/timelock With this setup, you can’t change the Screen Time settings yourself, and you can’t reset the PIN using “I forgot the PIN” button either.
  - puttycat 1y ago
    Oh wow thank you, I've been searching for something like this for a long time.
    - Aerbil313 1y ago
      One thing I forgot to mention. Every Apple account has a phone number tied to it for 2FA. That secondary recovery account should have a phone number you have no access to, otherwise you can reset its password. You can get a SIM, use it for account creation and then throw it away (though I doubt most people will need measures this extreme). There are further edge cases that I won't go into here, feel free to email me if you run into one. Brought to you by years of undiagnosed severe ADHD.

binarymax 1y ago

I’ve thought about this, because I’ve been meaning to make the switch. The solution isn’t that hard, just keep the smartphone in your desk drawer and use it for OTPs and banking apps. It’s annoying to have two phones and two numbers, but it can be done.

ale42 1y ago
Why do you even need a number on the smartphone? It can just work over wifi without SIM card. When you need an SMS to activate an app, you receive it on the dumbphone and type in the auth code on the "smart" one.
- nalinidash 1y ago
  All UPI apps here(in India) register to bank in an automated way using Sim verification.It is baked to the app,you can't do the verification manually.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
lrvick 1y ago
You do not even need it for OTPs and banking apps. Even if employees tell you it is, they are always wrong in my experience. That QR code you are always shown when you setup an OTP? It usually uses the TOTP algorithm supported by a dozen password managers or hardware keychain devices that will generate codes for you on demand without a phone. Say you do not have a compatible phone and the app requirement can be waived by a manager. Not had a smartphone in 5 years. It is never a blocker.
- zihotki 1y ago
  Or they will simply give a corporate one to you and tell to use it and carry it during working hours
  - lrvick 1y ago

ale42 1y ago

My bank requires it too. Except that if you call the customer service and tell them that well, you have no smartphone, then they switch you to SMS auth for that.

emberfiend 1y ago

Yeah, a smartphone with no dopamine feeds installed on it seems like the sane middle path here.

binarymax 1y ago
Only works if you can also remove the browser.
- jen729w 1y ago
  Done this. Re-installed the browser.
  - const_cast 1y ago
    Yes, me too. It's an addiction, plain and simple. I used to throw away my pack of cigs every single day for months. Months! Always bought one the next day. Very expensive. Crazy how quick the mind changes it's mind.

piqufoh 1y ago

Another ridiculous use case is paying for tickets in car parks, some require a smartphone (with no cash or alternative options). And UK primary schools - catching up with the kids homework, messages from the teacher - requires an app and a smartphone! It's so frustrating!

FirmwareBurner 1y ago
>some require a smartphone Mandating the need of smartphone apps to access critical services and basic life necessities like payments, parking, refueling, charging your car, public transport tickets, etc should be banned under accessibility laws. All this only benefits the service provider, not the consumer, since if the service is broken in some way (LTE/internet issue, payment processor issue, backend/cloud outage, etc) or has terrible UX, then the externalities and negative effects of that are all on the customer to deal with. Because what else are you gonna do on the spot? Not charge your car? Leave it in the middle of the road? Not board the bus to get to work? The problem they caused becomes your problem to deal with even though you have the money to pay but no easy way to do it because of their crap. Governments need to hold service prodivers accountable for the misery they cause and have them offer payment solutions and alternatives to smartphone apps for such critical services.
- go_elmo 1y ago
  Its like trying to ban cars to stay with horse cariages. The wheels of time wont be turned back. Imo the issue is not Smartphones but addicting UX patterns implemented - those should be banned. Its possible to make Smartphone usage non addictive - add friction to "candy" eg uninstall social media apps (use web only) use a quiet launcher (no app icons), remove all notifications except emergency ones etc.
  - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
    We're talking about different things here I think. What does phones and apps being addictive have to to do with the fact that a parking lot requires me to install an app to park my car or charge my car? There are a million other issues here than addictive apps. The internet connection could be down, he backend of the app could be down, etc. This shouldn't stop people from being able to use an important service like parking, charging, refueling, transportation, etc. You should be able to slot in some coins in a machine, get a paper ticket out, and that's it, you're in. >The wheels of time wont be turned back. They can be turned back by laws if the direction they've been turning by the unregulated free market lead us to a bad place that's discriminatory and causing misery to consumers, especially for critical services. We've been able to park and refuel cars fast and efficient for decades with no issues before apps and smartphones. Not all progress is good progress. Sometimes progress is just for the sake of cutting corners to increase profits for businesses at the expense of consumers. I don't want an "Bezos-fication" or "Musk-fication" of essential services.

lrvick 1y ago

Everyone says their bank or doctor, or favorite restaurant, or whatever requires an app. It is basically NEVER true. You just have to insist you do not own a compatible device and do not want one as you do not wish to accept the terms of service of Google or Apple, and/or say it is against your undisclosed religion. Works every time. Even at theme parks like Disney that insist you need an app for the map or fast pass... a manager can always override that requirement and give you the magic edge case privileges. Source: Not had a cell phone carrier or carried a phone in 5 years and never been restricted from doing anything I did previously, as a frequently traveling tech business owner.

u_sama 1y ago
In Europe, in order to be compliant with the new banking rules, you need to have a kind of external confirmation which is, ding ding ding your smartphone. You literally need to open your bank app in order to approve online transactions. And increasingly things are being digitalised thus you need will have an increasing need for smartphone because of such proposals. The alternative is that the bank sneds you a clunky OTP machine with a code every time you want to make a purchase or transaction.
- card_zero 1y ago
  Or SMS.
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 1y ago
  It seems another alternative is to build a scheme that works with a universal second factor like a yubikey.
chrismorgan 1y ago
I had cause to need WhatsApp a bit over a year ago: it requires a device that runs iOS, or Android with Google Play. I just assumed I could get past this, but the signup flow refused to run on LineageOS with MicroG via Waydroid on my laptop—wanted an authentic, Google-approved environment. Maybe that can be worked around; I don’t know. Subsequently you can run WhatsApp Web… but you can’t make calls that way, and if you don’t run it on an actual phone for two weeks, it’ll boot you.

thibaultamartin 1y ago

It's exactly that. And I also have come to the realization that I don't have to give up the convenience my smartphone offers. I only need to add friction for what causes distractions. In particular, the Personal Time mode of iOS has been a game changer for me: https://ergaster.org/til/ask-smartphone-attention/ https://ergaster.org/til/ask-smartphone-attention/

ekianjo 1y ago

It's even worse than banking there are some stores that only accept app-based payments these days (no credit card either) which should be completely illegal

lrvick 1y ago
Never experienced this in 5 years of shopping all over the world. I just say I do not have a compatible phone, am traveling, against my religion, or whatever, and they get a manager who can bust out some non-advertized alternative. Take the time to do this so others do not have to. I make restaurants print me menus, and I make theme parks get me a paper map and accept cash so I maintain my privacy.
antisol 1y ago
Which stores? It sounds like maybe you should go to a different one.

jangrahul 1y ago

Another eg of this: Approve two factor login with microsoft authenticator app. Game over.

noufalibrahim 1y ago

There are compromise solutions that make it a pain to use which goes a long way to defeating addiction. Here are a few 1. Make the screen monochrome. It greatly reduces the appeal of the entire system. 2. Increase the font size so that things don't look as pretty and slick. You deliberately cripple the UX. 3. As much as possible, use a browser instead of an "app" (e.g. X, Amazon etc.) and then set a limit for the time you can use your browser per day. 4. I use this as a launcher on my phone https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.qqlabs.minimalistlauncher https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.qqlabs.min... which prevents has "mindfulness delays" for selected apps and other features that make the usage less smooth. A combination of these has helped me reduce my attachment to the phone. There are also lots of times when I don't take it with me.

mattbee 1y ago

Get a tablet? A really big, underpowered one? You can still use Android & iOS but if it's not in your pocket, that achieves some of the same goals without sacrificing those "compulsory" apps.

antisol 1y ago

It sounds like you need to switch banks