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The best friends I’ve made at work have usually been in non-competitive departments. As in, I’m in marketing and they’re in graphic design, or programming, or d

The best friends I’ve made at work have usually been in non-competitive departments. As in, I’m in marketing and they’re in graphic design, or programming, or doing something else. Practically, this means 1) I will never be their superior, and vice versa and 2) we aren’t competing for the same position. In general I think this is a decent approximation for friendships, at work or otherwise.

tokioyoyo 1y ago
Counter data point, worked in a company 10 years ago, our team was so close that we would vacation together overseas. All in different companies, cities and countries now, but still try to get together whenever we’re in the same city. To be honest though, I’ve never been able to replicate that environment again, and it was pre-remote-first days. Might’ve been pure luck, or maybe we just understood how working with people you like is very enjoyable, despite the office politics.
- kamaal 1y ago
  >>Counter data point, worked in a company 10 years ago, our team was so close that we would vacation together overseas. Worst thing ever, nothing is more harmful than a enemy who appears as a friend. This is even more true at workplace, as you are competing with your colleagues for promotions, bonuses, RSUs, travel opportunities etc. Whether one likes to acknowledge this are not, you are actually competing with them. Another big issue with this sort of this is, it creates all kinds of untold social contracts which eventually nobody abides by. You wouldn't expect your friend to scheme behind your back to have you stack ranked in the bottom 10%, get your fired. Save his own job and have himself promoted. But in nearly every layoff cycle, this is exactly what happens.
  - pinoy420 1y ago
    [dead]
  - titanomachy 1y ago
    Please share where you work so I can make sure I never end up working anywhere near you
  - tokioyoyo 1y ago
    Literally all of that sounds like a you problem. I love my friends! They helped me out immensely over the past decade in terms of personal and professional life. I’ve always tried to do the same for them. I cherish my memories of dancing and drinking with all of them at my manager’s wedding after a decade of friendship. Having a social life is actually a good thing!
    - kamaal 1y ago
      We are talking about colleagues, not friends. Not sure if you know this, due to cost centers, companies have per team budgets. Quite literally, X gets bonuses at the expense of Y. Im not saying people act out of malice. But the game is designed such that somebody needs to lose for the other to win. Its like a pie chart, more area a section occupies, less there is for others.
      - tokioyoyo 1y ago
        That’s because you look at your team as a stepping stone and aspire to take the piece of the cake from them. I’m very sorry to say this, but when I’m hiring for my teams, this is the type of personality that I’m looking for to avoid. Genuinely makes the work miserable for everyone. Apologies, but I don’t like when people outright talk nonsense about my friends, lowering them down to numbers.
        kamaal 1y ago
        Im not sure you get the mathematics of this here. You can hire anybody, anybody, any saint for that matter. The more area a section occupies on a pie chart, the less area other sections get. >>Apologies, but I don’t like when people outright talk nonsense about my friends, lowering them down to numbers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana_pi_bill https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana_pi_bill
        lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 1y ago
        I don’t see a reason to think they don’t understand the math. They just don’t care.
  - jajko 1y ago
    I've experienced both. In my current work, I would never even think about spending vacation from anybody from work. But long time ago, I've been part of a company, that despite being sort of Accenture-style dev shop (meaning we were competing them for dev projects and often would win on our reputation and competence, not undercutting the price with cheap labor, also quite a few people moved from them to us), yet the atmosphere was extremely friendly. The cca original team still meets after more than 15 years when most went other ways. I've never seen or heard about anything similar. It attracted and retained top talent much more efficiently than high salaries.
    - kamaal 1y ago
      >>I've never seen or heard about anything similar. Yeah, I mean, they don't exactly go around announcing how the whole thing is done. You often don't know who won at your cost.
      - jajko 1y ago
        It wasn't secret in any way. Reward excellence immediately, not via some idiotic highly political yearly maybe-rounds. Let go of people clearly incapable to deliver good work (almost never the case, filtering during hiring was apparently good not only on technical skils but also 'culture' compatibility). Hear complaints and act upon them immediately. Pay people to get external certifications, internal in-department training on tech was very frequent and we all took rounds. Offer optional outside-of-work activities like team buildings, going together to pub. And I mean really optional. No bullshit, honesty and some good hard work. Very flat managerial hierarchy where owners actually listened and acted, and managers and employees acted and communicated as equals. That's about it. Maybe it wouldn't be enough these days, but back then we were the best game in town and attracted best folks from other companies due to above, without the need to pay higher than rest of high payers.
Helmut10001 1y ago
Yes, as a researcher at a non-profit organization, I became very close with the IT department. I would recommend this approach! It's great to finally not talk about work all the time during lunch (but about homelab, selfhosting, or star wars).
kamaal 1y ago
>>The best friends I’ve made at work have usually been in non-competitive departments. Best friendships I've made at work especially with my managers, in my own teams, have happened when I have openly announced I'm not competing for their position/job. Merely making this clear has made me more friends. People just don't like to see other people do well, even more so when people are working to take their own position. That few shitty years I had at work early career often were due to seniors finding books at my desk, or watching me work like mad on side projects, or delivering and speaking a lot during meetings. That's akin to announcing to them they must screw you to save their own jobs. Nothing good happens from there as groups of powerful people mark you up as your enemy and have to get rid of you for their collective good. The people who got promoted are often those who pretend to be harmlessly inert but are scheming and working behind people's back to get promoted and take top positions. Only last year, a junior I know got a manager fired and took his job, much to the shock of the manager, he eventually learned the junior had been working over an year and bypassing him, talking to managers above, convincing them he could do the job et al. The manager who got fired is struggling from months to find a new job. Long story short, speak as little as you can, avoid showing off your skills at work, don't appear aggressive, threatening or intimidating. Act totally harmless and inert, but work with people above for your progress. Career growth rarely comes from good performance, its almost always because of interpersonal relationships.

tokioyoyo 1y ago

Counter data point, worked in a company 10 years ago, our team was so close that we would vacation together overseas. All in different companies, cities and countries now, but still try to get together whenever we’re in the same city. To be honest though, I’ve never been able to replicate that environment again, and it was pre-remote-first days. Might’ve been pure luck, or maybe we just understood how working with people you like is very enjoyable, despite the office politics.

kamaal 1y ago
>>Counter data point, worked in a company 10 years ago, our team was so close that we would vacation together overseas. Worst thing ever, nothing is more harmful than a enemy who appears as a friend. This is even more true at workplace, as you are competing with your colleagues for promotions, bonuses, RSUs, travel opportunities etc. Whether one likes to acknowledge this are not, you are actually competing with them. Another big issue with this sort of this is, it creates all kinds of untold social contracts which eventually nobody abides by. You wouldn't expect your friend to scheme behind your back to have you stack ranked in the bottom 10%, get your fired. Save his own job and have himself promoted. But in nearly every layoff cycle, this is exactly what happens.
- pinoy420 1y ago
  [dead]
- titanomachy 1y ago
  Please share where you work so I can make sure I never end up working anywhere near you
- tokioyoyo 1y ago
  Literally all of that sounds like a you problem. I love my friends! They helped me out immensely over the past decade in terms of personal and professional life. I’ve always tried to do the same for them. I cherish my memories of dancing and drinking with all of them at my manager’s wedding after a decade of friendship. Having a social life is actually a good thing!
  - kamaal 1y ago
    We are talking about colleagues, not friends. Not sure if you know this, due to cost centers, companies have per team budgets. Quite literally, X gets bonuses at the expense of Y. Im not saying people act out of malice. But the game is designed such that somebody needs to lose for the other to win. Its like a pie chart, more area a section occupies, less there is for others.
    - tokioyoyo 1y ago
      That’s because you look at your team as a stepping stone and aspire to take the piece of the cake from them. I’m very sorry to say this, but when I’m hiring for my teams, this is the type of personality that I’m looking for to avoid. Genuinely makes the work miserable for everyone. Apologies, but I don’t like when people outright talk nonsense about my friends, lowering them down to numbers.
      - kamaal 1y ago
        Im not sure you get the mathematics of this here. You can hire anybody, anybody, any saint for that matter. The more area a section occupies on a pie chart, the less area other sections get. >>Apologies, but I don’t like when people outright talk nonsense about my friends, lowering them down to numbers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana_pi_bill https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana_pi_bill
        lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 1y ago
        I don’t see a reason to think they don’t understand the math. They just don’t care.
- jajko 1y ago
  I've experienced both. In my current work, I would never even think about spending vacation from anybody from work. But long time ago, I've been part of a company, that despite being sort of Accenture-style dev shop (meaning we were competing them for dev projects and often would win on our reputation and competence, not undercutting the price with cheap labor, also quite a few people moved from them to us), yet the atmosphere was extremely friendly. The cca original team still meets after more than 15 years when most went other ways. I've never seen or heard about anything similar. It attracted and retained top talent much more efficiently than high salaries.
  - kamaal 1y ago
    >>I've never seen or heard about anything similar. Yeah, I mean, they don't exactly go around announcing how the whole thing is done. You often don't know who won at your cost.
    - jajko 1y ago
      It wasn't secret in any way. Reward excellence immediately, not via some idiotic highly political yearly maybe-rounds. Let go of people clearly incapable to deliver good work (almost never the case, filtering during hiring was apparently good not only on technical skils but also 'culture' compatibility). Hear complaints and act upon them immediately. Pay people to get external certifications, internal in-department training on tech was very frequent and we all took rounds. Offer optional outside-of-work activities like team buildings, going together to pub. And I mean really optional. No bullshit, honesty and some good hard work. Very flat managerial hierarchy where owners actually listened and acted, and managers and employees acted and communicated as equals. That's about it. Maybe it wouldn't be enough these days, but back then we were the best game in town and attracted best folks from other companies due to above, without the need to pay higher than rest of high payers.

Helmut10001 1y ago

Yes, as a researcher at a non-profit organization, I became very close with the IT department. I would recommend this approach! It's great to finally not talk about work all the time during lunch (but about homelab, selfhosting, or star wars).

kamaal 1y ago

>>The best friends I’ve made at work have usually been in non-competitive departments. Best friendships I've made at work especially with my managers, in my own teams, have happened when I have openly announced I'm not competing for their position/job. Merely making this clear has made me more friends. People just don't like to see other people do well, even more so when people are working to take their own position. That few shitty years I had at work early career often were due to seniors finding books at my desk, or watching me work like mad on side projects, or delivering and speaking a lot during meetings. That's akin to announcing to them they must screw you to save their own jobs. Nothing good happens from there as groups of powerful people mark you up as your enemy and have to get rid of you for their collective good. The people who got promoted are often those who pretend to be harmlessly inert but are scheming and working behind people's back to get promoted and take top positions. Only last year, a junior I know got a manager fired and took his job, much to the shock of the manager, he eventually learned the junior had been working over an year and bypassing him, talking to managers above, convincing them he could do the job et al. The manager who got fired is struggling from months to find a new job. Long story short, speak as little as you can, avoid showing off your skills at work, don't appear aggressive, threatening or intimidating. Act totally harmless and inert, but work with people above for your progress. Career growth rarely comes from good performance, its almost always because of interpersonal relationships.