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Is there any (realistic) concern that plasma gasification causes an adverse incentive to generate additional waste vs waste reduction efforts because now locali

Is there any (realistic) concern that plasma gasification causes an adverse incentive to generate additional waste vs waste reduction efforts because now localities are, to some degree, dependent on feeding the machine to generate electricity? Do localities with plasma gasifiers end up purchasing waste from elsewhere to maintain waste input stocks? I am not familiar with the economics here.

imachine1980_ 1y ago
You can tax plastic also that will more than move the demand you can even use this tax for plasma gasification making more expensive to use and less to reuse.
mortenjorck 1y ago
> Do localities with plasma gasifiers end up purchasing waste from elsewhere to maintain waste input stocks? This… sounds like a very good problem to have?
- komali2 1y ago
  Until the plastic runs out. I was confused by the comment as well but I started thinking about the disposable movement - cheaper to just make and throw away plastic utensils than for McDonald's to have flatware, and remains cheap if there's buyers for the plastic. A good solution with unfortunately perverse incentives. Probably the solution is government bans on unnecessarily wasteful uses of plastics. The market is provably incapable of tackling environmental issues without regulatory encouragement.
  - SchemaLoad 1y ago
    In Australia plastic utensils and bags have been banned for so long you'd almost forget they existed. Was a pretty big shock traveling to other countries and seeing how far behind they are on this stuff. There wasn't even a difficult transition period, it just probably costs an extra cent to use wood over plastic.
    - taejavu 1y ago
      I think you’re overstating this somewhat - I took eggs home in a plastic bag from my local butcher this morning and ate with plastic forks and knives at a picnic on the weekend. Yes, in Australia.
      - SchemaLoad 1y ago
        I guess depends on the state. I haven't even seen a plastic fork in Australia for a long time. Stores were banned from selling them many years ago. I guess if you went out of your way to direct import them from overseas.
    - acyou 1y ago
      Ever wonder if wood is really a renewable resource? Once you see a 4th generation forest, you start to realize we might be running pretty short. This seems to bounce back and forth, for awhile it was save the trees, now it's cut down trees to save the world apparently?
      - SchemaLoad 1y ago
        The wood they are using comes from tree farming, not deforestation. It's pretty low density fast growing wood that's about as renewable as it gets. Worlds better than plastic at the least.
      - decimalenough 1y ago
        The wood used for disposable utensils comes from farmed, very fast growing trees like bamboo and balsa: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ochroma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ochroma
        acyou 1y ago
        As I was saying, https://stopthesethings.com/2021/12/18/billions-of-wind-turbine-blades-built-with-balsa-wood-stripped-from-amazons-forests/ https://stopthesethings.com/2021/12/18/billions-of-wind-turb...
  - toomuchtodo 1y ago
    Plastics are not the only waste you can gasify. Organics, cardboard, wood, paper, medical waste, household rubbish, etc. The only materials you don’t want in the waste stream are metals, glass, rock, and brick. https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/plasma-gasifiers https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/plasma-gasi...
lurk2 1y ago
> Do localities with plasma gasifiers end up purchasing waste from elsewhere to maintain waste input stocks? This wouldn’t be a problem for a very long time. The reason so much of this waste ends up being landfilled or shipped overseas is due to a lack of capacity in existing waste-to-energy plants. It isn’t quite like the perverse-incentive problem introduced by biomass facilities because the waste is going to be generated regardless.
Nevermark 1y ago
> Is there any (realistic) concern that plasma gasification causes an adverse incentive to generate additional waste vs waste reduction efforts If waste reduction is a problematic catalyst for more production and pollution, … We have a problem even bigger than I thought. I would hope that would not be the case, but apparently recycling theater successfully reduced efforts to push back on the supply side. Our self-created problems are becoming ridiculous. By the time the ultra rich are chocking on plastic in their caviar the rest of us will already be plasticized.
- germinalphrase 1y ago
  Maybe I am misunderstanding your comment, but I dont see plasma gasification as waste reduction. We are reusing the waste for energy production. We could be making efforts to reduce the overall amount of plastic waste (perhaps through legislation), but if we become reliant on the energy generated, we would be incentivized to avoid waste reduction because we want the energy. FWIW, “recycling theater” is also not waste reduction and is a separate, but related, problem that increases plastic waste.
mdenavacady 1y ago
Waste to energy plants don’t make money. They lessen the waste. So, buying trash to loose less money is postponing bankruptcy. They run on free money. Sounds fun though

imachine1980_ 1y ago

You can tax plastic also that will more than move the demand you can even use this tax for plasma gasification making more expensive to use and less to reuse.

mortenjorck 1y ago

> Do localities with plasma gasifiers end up purchasing waste from elsewhere to maintain waste input stocks? This… sounds like a very good problem to have?

komali2 1y ago
Until the plastic runs out. I was confused by the comment as well but I started thinking about the disposable movement - cheaper to just make and throw away plastic utensils than for McDonald's to have flatware, and remains cheap if there's buyers for the plastic. A good solution with unfortunately perverse incentives. Probably the solution is government bans on unnecessarily wasteful uses of plastics. The market is provably incapable of tackling environmental issues without regulatory encouragement.
- SchemaLoad 1y ago
  In Australia plastic utensils and bags have been banned for so long you'd almost forget they existed. Was a pretty big shock traveling to other countries and seeing how far behind they are on this stuff. There wasn't even a difficult transition period, it just probably costs an extra cent to use wood over plastic.
  - taejavu 1y ago
    I think you’re overstating this somewhat - I took eggs home in a plastic bag from my local butcher this morning and ate with plastic forks and knives at a picnic on the weekend. Yes, in Australia.
    - SchemaLoad 1y ago
      I guess depends on the state. I haven't even seen a plastic fork in Australia for a long time. Stores were banned from selling them many years ago. I guess if you went out of your way to direct import them from overseas.
  - acyou 1y ago
    Ever wonder if wood is really a renewable resource? Once you see a 4th generation forest, you start to realize we might be running pretty short. This seems to bounce back and forth, for awhile it was save the trees, now it's cut down trees to save the world apparently?
    - SchemaLoad 1y ago
      The wood they are using comes from tree farming, not deforestation. It's pretty low density fast growing wood that's about as renewable as it gets. Worlds better than plastic at the least.
    - decimalenough 1y ago
      The wood used for disposable utensils comes from farmed, very fast growing trees like bamboo and balsa: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ochroma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ochroma
      - acyou 1y ago
        As I was saying, https://stopthesethings.com/2021/12/18/billions-of-wind-turbine-blades-built-with-balsa-wood-stripped-from-amazons-forests/ https://stopthesethings.com/2021/12/18/billions-of-wind-turb...
- toomuchtodo 1y ago
  Plastics are not the only waste you can gasify. Organics, cardboard, wood, paper, medical waste, household rubbish, etc. The only materials you don’t want in the waste stream are metals, glass, rock, and brick. https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/plasma-gasifiers https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/plasma-gasi...

lurk2 1y ago

> Do localities with plasma gasifiers end up purchasing waste from elsewhere to maintain waste input stocks? This wouldn’t be a problem for a very long time. The reason so much of this waste ends up being landfilled or shipped overseas is due to a lack of capacity in existing waste-to-energy plants. It isn’t quite like the perverse-incentive problem introduced by biomass facilities because the waste is going to be generated regardless.

Nevermark 1y ago

> Is there any (realistic) concern that plasma gasification causes an adverse incentive to generate additional waste vs waste reduction efforts If waste reduction is a problematic catalyst for more production and pollution, … We have a problem even bigger than I thought. I would hope that would not be the case, but apparently recycling theater successfully reduced efforts to push back on the supply side. Our self-created problems are becoming ridiculous. By the time the ultra rich are chocking on plastic in their caviar the rest of us will already be plasticized.

germinalphrase 1y ago
Maybe I am misunderstanding your comment, but I dont see plasma gasification as waste reduction. We are reusing the waste for energy production. We could be making efforts to reduce the overall amount of plastic waste (perhaps through legislation), but if we become reliant on the energy generated, we would be incentivized to avoid waste reduction because we want the energy. FWIW, “recycling theater” is also not waste reduction and is a separate, but related, problem that increases plastic waste.

mdenavacady 1y ago

Waste to energy plants don’t make money. They lessen the waste. So, buying trash to loose less money is postponing bankruptcy. They run on free money. Sounds fun though